Learn from the best designers and developers from companies like Dribbble, Intercom, or Product Hunt. Every week we interview skilled and experienced professionals in your favorite field.

The Grit - Interviews with best designers and developers by Avocode

## Hi Christina. Thanks for taking the time. To break the ice, as a content designer, what do you enjoy doing in your free time?

Hello! Thanks for having me. These days with a toddler, my free time is pretty limited, but I always manage to make time to play word games on my phone. I’m obsessed! Scrabble is one of my favorites, but there are many others like Boggle and Bananagrams. I also enjoy crossword puzzles. Hit me up on Boggle or Words With Friends (@hellochristina). I’m always looking for people to play with.

## Very cool. Can you introduce yourself a bit and tell us what makes you busy these days?

I work at Facebook with the newly minted title of Content Designer (formerly Content Strategist). More on that later. I’m a San Francisco Bay Area native. Growing up, my parents didn’t pressure me to get top grades or pursue a career in medicine or computers, even though they themselves worked in those fields. I felt like I had a lot of leeway in whatever path I chose. This was a huge relief since I was absolutely terrible at science and math. The one thing I had was a love of reading and writing, which was bolstered by a kind and encouraging English teacher I had in high school.

After graduating college with an English degree, I worked various temp jobs while looking for something permanent and happened to get placed at a small advertising agency doing administrative tasks. I loved the energy of the place, particularly the creative department where the art directors, designers, and copywriters were gathered. The owner’s 74-year-old mother worked in the proofreading department. After learning that I was looking for a job, she talked with her son, who then hired me as a proofreader. Over time, I was given a few copywriting projects to work on by the creative director, and that’s where my career started. I’m forever grateful for the people in my life who have taken a chance on me, and that’s why I try to pay it back by helping others where I can, whether it’s by making connections, giving them feedback on their portfolio or offering career guidance for people interested in working in content design.

Fast forward a few jobs, and I eventually made the switch to Product Content Design. In some ways, it’s flexing the same muscles, and in many other ways, it’s building many new skills that, to this day, I feel I’m still learning and will continue to do so.

## Tell us about what you do at Facebook.

Content designers at Facebook are embedded in product teams and work on things like naming, interface writing, information architecture, and planning content to scale across the massive system that is Facebook. I spent a couple of years working on the Profile team, and for the last few years have been on a team that focuses on people in emerging markets. Most teams at Facebook take a global approach to build products, and my team is unique in that we focus on addressing barriers that certain populations face in using Facebook.

> Content designers at Facebook are embedded on product teams and work on things like naming, interface writing, information architecture, and planning content to scale across the massive system that is Facebook.

This minority approach is actually a majority stake for Facebook. More users are in emerging markets than in developing countries. This means many people either use Facebook in a language other than English or use Facebook in English but may have varying comprehension levels. I was intrigued with the challenge of how to scale the English language so it’s understood by every type of user - from a fluent American to someone who may barely be able to make out a few words here and there. For example, in India, nearly everyone is using Facebook in English, but the level of comprehension varies wildly in the country.

> For example, in India, nearly everyone is using Facebook in English, but the level of comprehension varies wildly in the country.

One of my favorite examples of how English isn’t a one-size-fits-all is the phrase “What’s on your mind?” It’s one of the first things you see when you open Facebook, prompting you to create a post. The data showed that posting was low in India, and after digging into why this could be, we learned that people in India didn’t understand what the phrase meant and didn’t realize what they were supposed to do. After rounds of testing different content dimensions, the winning variant was “Write something here.” Being direct and instructional clarified the action we wanted people to take as well as where to take it. This is now what everyone in India sees.

<Image  caption="How Facebook localizes the 'Create Post' component" alt="Creating a post in Facebook" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/post_cccc0f56f8.png" external/>

## The Content Design team at Facebook recently changed its name from Content Strategy. What are your thoughts on that?

My personal opinion is that the Content Strategist title has been going through somewhat of an identity crisis over the years. The title has grown to mean a lot of different roles and responsibilities. The word “strategist” is so broad and can be applied to many content practices. I love that we’re better defining our function and aligning it with our closest counterpart, product design. We design experiences for people using words. We partner with product designers on how best to visualize these experiences in a way that is clear and straightforward.

> We design experiences for people using words.

## You have a journalism degree. What pushed you toward copywriting and eventually content design?

I went to graduate school with no idea of what I wanted to do after. I just felt that journalism was a nice base to work off to pursue some kind of career in writing. My motivations for grad school are a little murky as I was drawn to the opportunity to live in London. It turned out to be an unforgettable year, both academically and personally. When I came back to California, I ended up back in the same industry I was in before I left advertising. I worked as a copywriter for companies like Gap and Williams-Sonoma before landing at Hotwire, a travel company owned by Expedia. It was there that I first heard about the UX practice and UX writing. By then, I was feeling burnt out with trying to write catchy headlines and was intrigued with the challenge of solving people and business problems. I had a few roles at Hotwire and the last one was on a product team, helping to set up a new CMS. While it wasn’t UX work, it was a step in the right direction.

## What are the main differences in responsibilities and tasks of a Copywriter vs. a Content Designer?

The goals and the ways the roles function are the primary differences. As a Copywriter, you’re writing with the intent of getting people to want to buy something. You tend to use subjective adjectives and can be abstract, playful and clever in communicating the benefits of the product. You’re usually working off of a brief, with many decisions already made for you. Communication with the client or stakeholder is more disconnected than a content designer, who’s usually embedded on a product team.

> As a copywriter, you’re usually working off of a brief, with many decisions already made for you.

As a Content Designer, you usually have a stake in deciding what products to build and how they will be built. You define frameworks to guide the content direction as part of a system, accounting for scalability in size and locales. Your words are simple and straightforward with the goal of getting the user through a flow with as little friction as possible. In both roles, you consider the audience, choose your words wisely and follow established voice and tone guidelines.

> As a Content Designer, you usually have a stake in deciding what products to build and how they will be built.

## As a Content Strategist at Facebook, you are talking to a global audience, but how do you approach the issue of localization?

Content designers at Facebook create content in English first, and the content is then translated into all of the languages we support. While we work at scale, we’re thoughtful about localization and ensuring that the content not only translates well but meets the needs of each locale. We make sure that terminology is well-defined and that translations carry the same tone as was intended in English. Our voice is simple, straightforward, and human, so we can be sure we always sound like Facebook, no matter the language. Content Designers work closely with the localization team in all phases of our work.

> While we work at scale, we’re thoughtful about localization and ensuring that the content not only translates well but meets the needs of each locale.

<Image  caption="Creating a Story with the Facebook app. Source: facebookblueprint.com" alt="Creating a Story with the Facebook app" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/facebook_story_1056704418.gif" width="35%" external/>

## When somebody in the room says “people don’t read”, how do you react?

I hear this phrase in meetings from time to time, and it’s like nails on a chalkboard. On the one hand, I know what people mean to say, that yes, not everyone reads every word on a screen or wants to parse through paragraphs of text. People tend to scan. But it can come across as dismissive and inconsiderate of the needs of our users. Of course, people read. If an app had no text and was full of empty boxes, how would people know what to do? Every word matters. And every word should be there for a reason. Content Designers have run countless A/B test results that show changing the content - whether it’s the tone, value proposition, or even the verb choice - can make or break an experience.

> Of course, people read. If an app had no text and was full of empty boxes, how would people know what to do? Every word matters. And every word should be there for a reason.

## The chicken or the egg conundrum. What comes first - content or design?

I’d say it depends on the situation. A content- vs. a design-led initiative seems self-explanatory but when it’s not as clear cut, I would say either could come first. The Content Designer may have more on their plate and is unable to start a project as early as the product designer, and vice versa. I don’t think it matters so much as the importance of collaboration and early sharing of work between the two roles.

## What is your best practice regarding the collaboration between content and design?

Design and content work very closely at Facebook. Oftentimes, we’re literally sitting next to each other (when we were actually in the office). If the partnership is working at its best, we are each other’s right-hand person. We make decisions together. Run ideas by each other. Create principles and frameworks. We run brainstorms together and use data to inform what we should work on. We gain alignment and make sure our work tells a cohesive story before presenting it to the team.

## What problems are you facing when it comes to the collaboration between design and content?

One of the biggest challenges I’ve faced is being outnumbered by the number of product designers I support. When a Product Designer is able to dedicate 100% of their time to one product or pillar, they’re able to work at a deeper level, and produce work that shows depth and breadth. This makes it easier to build subject matter expertise and be seen as a key player. A Content Designer can only be so effective when they’re splitting their time between two, three or more workstreams.

On a more tactical level, collaboration in asynchronous design tools like Sketch is a challenge for content designers. We either have to rely on the Product Designer to make content updates, or we have to figure out some type of process of taking turns updating the Sketch file. Figma solves this big problem, and I’m so glad that teams are moving in this direction.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?**

You can find me on [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/hellochristinawu/). If you like word games, find me @hellochristina on Boggle or Words With Friends.

**Bonus Question: What’s your favorite way to eat avocado?**

Can I start with my least favorite way to eat avocado? I love avocado, and I love sushi, but the two do not go together! I’m a sushi purist and feel it’s wrong to include avocado in a roll. Now my favorite way to eat avocado, and this is going to make me sound so Californian, is avocado toast. Toasted sliced sourdough with avocado, then sliced tomato and topped with a fried egg. Drizzle a little salt and pepper. Perfection.

Christina Wu leads the Content Design Team at Facebook. She is an expert at how to design experiences for a global audience using words, clearly visualize them, and remove friction. Now she reveals her approach to effectively pairing content and design for The Grit by Avocode.

On how to effectively pair content and design with Christina Wu from Facebook

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The Grit - Christina Wu, Content Design Manager at Facebook 

## Hi Ilona. Thanks for taking the time. Let's start with who you are and what you do?

Happy to be here! I’m Ilona and I head up the Content Team at AppSumo. Truth to be told, I’ve been a bit of a word nerd for as long as I can remember. This probably has to do with the fact that English is my second language (Russian is my first), so I’ve been a little bit obsessed with getting it right.

I grew up in New York, found my love for tech and startups in Seattle, and decided that there is such a thing as too much rain so I packed a U-Haul and drove to Austin, sight unseen. In what can only be described as kismet, AppSumo was the first job I applied to when I arrived. I was instantly drawn in by the punchy, irreverent copy in the job description and knew it was the place for me.

In my current role as Head of Content, I oversee our copy, design, video, email, and content marketing teams. If you’re looking at something on our site, chances are, the incredible people I work with had a hand in it.

## Tell us a bit about what AppSumo does and what is the (success) story behind it?
[AppSumo](https://appsumo.com) gives everyday entrepreneurs the tools they need to grow their business. That means deals on client-management software, social media tools, design apps — you name it. There shouldn’t be a barrier to entry when it comes to starting your side hustle (or main hustle, for that matter!) so really, our audience is anyone looking to start, grow, or streamline their business.

Here’s our backstory: Once upon a time in 2010, Noah Kagan had the idea to bundle and discount software products that he, himself, wanted to use. Turns out, a lot of people use software and not a lot of people want to pay monthly subscriptions for it. We partner with startups and match our audience of digitally savvy folks with insanely discounted access to cutting edge tools. In exchange, our audience offers founders really valuable user feedback, social proof, and capital to flesh out their roadmap or build their team.

<Image src="73/1.png" caption="" />

## You are an expert on outreach and outbound marketing. How do you keep your messaging natural, engaging, and not spammy?

Great question! I think the key is letting your personality shine through. Everyone has received an email that they know is just a mail-merge tag of their name and website. Frankly, those are easy to ignore. But when you take time to really understand who you’re speaking to, what their pain point is, and how you can fix it for them — that’s the kind of message you want to respond to.

Thankfully, AppSumo has always had a really distinct and funny voice. So when I took over our copy, I definitely had big shoes to fill, but I was also able to sound like me. The advice that I received was to write copy like I was speaking to a friend, and to make the conversation about them — not whatever I was selling. For instance, you could say ‘this software is intended for collaboration’ or you could say ‘never deal with miscommunication again.’ One of these focuses on the feature — the other focuses on the person and the problem you’re solving for them.

> The advice that I received was to write copy like I was speaking to a friend, and to make the conversation about them — not whatever I was selling.

Emails sound spammy when they’re over-optimized. Instead of trying to fit in as many CTA buttons as you can, or using the word FREE in capital letters — focus on relating to your audience and solving a problem for them.

> Instead of trying to fit in as many CTA buttons as you can, or using the word FREE in capital letters — focus on relating to your audience and solving a problem for them.

## How do you work with target audiences, segmenting, and buyer personas?

There are a few ways to answer this question! At AppSumo, I think of our target audience in terms of their stage along the entrepreneurial journey: you have your wantrepreneurs (people that view starting their own business as aspirational), your side-hustlers, your full-timers, and your I’m-growing-my-own-business-and-hiring-ers (we should probably come up with a better name for them, huh?). These stages come to play when we’re thinking of how to effectively message to people, and what kind of content we want them to resonate with.

We also segment customers based on their stage in the purchaser funnel: casual buyers, super buyers, referrers, and affiliates. Identifying levers to get a customer from one bucket into the next increases our lifetime with that customer, and helps get new customers through the door. For example, celebrating milestones (e.g. a first purchase) with an incentive to repeat that action (say, offering a discount) positively reinforces the behavior amongst your audience.

When it comes to email, you should also segment based on activity. Having an active segment and inactive segment allows you to know who to send to more frequently, who you need to re-engage, and how to measure the overall health of your list. I use the size of the active segment as a pulse-check on how the rest of the list is doing, and how effective our retention tactics are.

## Content is not just words, but also design. How do you make sure the marriage between the two works in your content strategy?

Design is an incredibly powerful and important part of the content umbrella, namely because:

- 1. people learn and process information differently,
- 2. visual media compels emotion.

I’ll use the AppSumo content strategy as an example. For a while, our design was cartoony. Our brand is informal and jokey — not to mention, software tends to be abstract (there are only so many ways you can showcase spreadsheets). But as we started to delve deeper into the AppSumo brand promises and values, we realized that at its core, our ethos was about **serving and honoring the entrepreneur**. Our cartoon-like images did not adequately capture the feelings we wanted to evoke. This led to our decision to tell more customer stories and partner case studies. With that comes a stronger emphasis on human-centric imagery and design.

<Image src="73/2.png" caption="" />

## As a content strategist, you need to worry not just about the textual message, but also how it looks. How does your content department work with the design team?

We’re blessed to work with some of the best designers in the game, who can visually translate even the most complex concepts. That said, designers aren’t mind-readers, so it’s important to have clear examples of what we’re looking for. Recently, we got into the habit of creating mood-boards via Pinterest and [Really Good Emails](https://reallygoodemails.com/) to draw inspiration and be able to accurately communicate what we want.

<Image src="73/3.png" caption="Really Good Emails’ Collection feature has been a game-changer when it comes to categorizing and sharing inspiration for new campaigns and designs!" />

This might sound really basic, but one thing we’ve only recently started doing is creating a strong visual style guide, both for internal and external use. Keeping an up-to-date repository of our colors, logos, fonts, etc. has allowed us to become more streamlined and consistent. And this goes without saying but as a team grows, documentation is everything!

<Image src="73/4.png" caption="AppSumo design system." />

At AppSumo, the design team is an integral part of the content team — and we work closely on just about every project. Jeir, our amazing Creative Director, sets the tone and direction for a campaign. For example, we’re cooking up something. 🔥

for our Black Friday event this year. Jeir and I met to discuss potential themes and landed on a visual identity we were excited about. From there, his team works with the video, ads, and affiliate teams to create assets that match for each channel. Our copy team then brings it over the finish line with choice words that match the look we’re going for.

<Image src="73/5.png?v1" caption="AppSumo Black Friday campaign last year (2019) — a 1990’s throwback theme, reinforced with copy" />

The start-off point is important here: for a campaign like Black Friday, we led with design. Other campaigns, like say, a Back-to-School Giveaway, start with an idea or a feeling expressed by copy. Then it’s the design team’s job to translate that into a visual. Collaboration is key here. Having a team that feeds on each other’s energy and wants to supplement and improve what’s already there is the missing ingredient between good and great.

## Many people nowadays think that humanity has stopped reading and that the average attention span is shortening. What do you think? Do you think people don’t read online?

People definitely don’t read as much as you want them to, but I also don’t think the situation is as dire as it seems. We actually polled our audience about this last year and the results were about what you’d expect (picture on the left). While there were many "skimmers", we did have some customers tell us that the copy is an integral part of the experience for them (picture on the right).

<Image src="73/6.png?v1" caption="" />

> People definitely don’t read as much as you want them to, but I also don’t think the situation is as dire as it seems.

But we did have some customers tell us that the copy is an integral part of the experience for them:

Words definitely matter — that’s why newsletters like Morning Brew have seen a resurgence recently! Ultimately, there are many different kinds of people, all with their own preferences and proclivities. So my answer is: **repurpose the same kind of content in every medium so each visitor can choose their own adventure**. We have fun, engaging copy if you care to read it; a high-energy video if you prefer to watch; and screenshots and GIFs sprinkled throughout the page for those that need to visualize. Instead of lamenting that audiences have shorter attention spans, ask yourself: How do I get a piece of that attention pie?

> Repurpose the same kind of content in every medium so each visitor can choose their own adventure.

## I’m sure that at AppSumo, you are often talking to various audiences. What’s your take on localisation?

Lucky for us, entrepreneurship exists worldwide. Add the secondary layer that we sell software tools to grow online businesses, and our target market is the entire world. (No big deal, right?)

That being said, we are definitely experimenting with localization. For example, we created a task force to translate one of our deal pages into Spanish — including copy, video, and a webinar. We then ran ads exclusively to a Spanish-speaking audience. Our main learning from this experience is that it is not easy to do!

There are tools that can help, however! We recently featured [Alugha](https://alugha.com/) on AppSumo, which allows you to translate video content into the language of your viewer.

I would recommend using insights from tools like this to better understand who your audience is, and what opportunities are your biggest levers before making massive time/resource investments.

## You are very passionate about e-mail marketing. To make sure you send the most compelling e-mails with good frequency and timing, you need to have some sort of framework or calendar. What do you use?

You’re so right, I AM very passionate about e-mail marketing! This is a tough question to answer because it really depends on who your audience is, what product you’re marketing to them, and how frequently you’ve been sending emails in the past. We started by sending two emails per week. Then, as our deal calendar grew, we experimented by slowly adding more emails to the week and monitoring how our audience responded to them. Now, we send closer to five emails per week — many of them digest-style featuring multiple tools in one.

I don’t think there’s a magic cadence, but I would keep this framework in mind:

1. Provide value every time by being entertaining, giving something away for free, or solving a problem

2. Don’t send an email just to send an email (see point #1)

3. Monitor how your audience is reacting to what you’re sending them. A/B test length, copy, subject lines, etc. Keep your lists smaller but more engaged. Know your key metrics, like unsubscribe rate, and course correct when your leading indicators tell you to.

## What’s your take on simply textual vs visual templates? Which works best and when?

I love a plain-text template! Our Chief Sumo, Noah Kagan, sends mainly text-based emails for his [YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/okdork?sub_confirmation=1) and they have great engagement!

<Image src="73/7.png?v1" caption="" />

Plain text emails make more sense when they’re coming from a person, rather than a company. Visual emails really let your brand shine!

I also think that if your product is visual, then that should be conveyed in your emails. An important call-out for visual emails is accessibility. Make sure that you leverage alt-text where your images are in the event that someone is visually impaired and leans on apps to translate your messages, or even if someone has the HTML turned off on their ESP. The last thing you want to do is send an email that’s basically null because you didn’t consider accessibility!

## How do you test the quality of design and code in your emails and generally your content strategy?

When I first started at AppSumo, I introduced a completely new email layout. In order to effectively do this, I rolled it out in stages to make sure that I didn’t completely confuse and alienate our audience. That’s why I started with A/B testing to our newest customers, and when I saw that my variation was equal to or better, I moved on to the rest of the list.

For example here is the progress of one of our emails:

1. Added our logo and a nav bar so it’s clear that we are the brand behind the email;
2. Added a live timer to capitalize on the FOMO component of the time sensitive deal;
3. Shortened up our copy considerably with more focus on a call-to-action

<Row col="2"><Image src="73/8.png?v1" caption="AppSumo email template in 2017" /><Image src="73/9.png?v1" caption="AppSumo email template today (2020)" /></Row>

## Social media apps. We all use them. They steal our time and we can’t help it. As a content strategist, which are the best social media channels to deliver your message?

So full disclosure: I’m terrible at Instagram—at least when it comes to my personal page. No one’s made me a brand ambassador yet (holler at your girl, @Madewell). But when it comes to content strategy, I think IG is still king for visual brands.

For a company like ours, YouTube is probably the channel I have the most faith in. Its algorithm is scary-good, and it’s free to host! We’ve seen a lot of success when we started taking it seriously — more so than on any other platform. (If you want to give our channel a follow, you can [find us here.](https://youtube.com/appsumo?sub_confirmation=1))

I also wouldn’t underestimate the value of a Facebook group — doing the grunt work upfront to find relevant groups that have high engagement can seriously pay off! I would recommend doing your research and putting time into crafting a post ([here’s](https://growgetters.substack.com/p/posting-to-facebook-groups-100s-of) how I recommend you do that).

## Every successful design or tech driven company ends up with building a sales team. What’s your take on cold e-mailing and generally outbound marketing? How can you do it to break the ice, build relationships instead of bothering people?

Ok, so here’s the thing: no one likes receiving emails from a robot. And while I’m sure a lot of people will tell you it’s a numbers game, I say it’s always better to start with your warmest leads (aka your personal and secondary network) and write real messages, even if it takes longer. I would also definitely recommend my friends over at [lemlist](https://www.lemlist.com/), whose software is killing the personalized outreach game.

Here are some fast and loose tips for outreach:

1. Act like you know the person! Say something like, "I see you’re based in Austin! I love the al pastor tacos at Veracruz!" (Related side note: Make sure you don’t spell someone’s name wrong! This happens to me all the time and it’s an instant dealbreaker.)
2. Don’t say generic things like: "I hope this email finds you well during these unprecedented times." (And if you do, make a joke acknowledging how generic that is.)
3. Follow up! I often respond to the second or third email. But please, don’t make your follow-ups sound like a lyric from Eminem’s “Stan.” Instead, give people a kind way out. Say "Hey I’m a big fan and I’d love to collaborate with you - but no pressure." The relationship shouldn’t feel contingent on them taking your preferred action. Who knows? Maybe there will be a door open in the future if isn’t right now.

If this topic really gets you going (I respect that, you weirdo), I’d also recommend checking out this [Outreach 101 blog series](https://blog.appsumo.com/defining-your-buyer-persona/) we put together!

## Can you share your favorite resources?

- [https://reallygoodemails.com](https://reallygoodemails.com/)&nbsp;-&nbsp;The best place to find inspo for an email campaign! They just came out with an SMS version of this and it’s also awesome. Plus, their emails are…really good.
- [https://www.figma.com/community](https://www.figma.com/community)&nbsp;-&nbsp;I’ve been loving Figma as a collaborator and am really impressed with the community posts!
- [https://open.spotify.com/playlist](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6MURYpgRMJbdnmXUJQ4aJ3?si=4GNtyOKoSgCdl3FOMrOzFA)&nbsp;(Yes, I made this playlist. No, I’m not embarrassed. [#FallOutBoy4Ever](https://paper.dropbox.com/?q=%23FallOutBoy4Ever))
- [https://www.nytimes.com/crossword](https://www.nytimes.com/crossword)&nbsp;-&nbsp;Best yearly subscription money can buy! Helps with writers block, word association, and cultural references.

## What’s your greatest worry when it comes to the content strategy as a profession in 2020?

I’m always concerned with balancing SEO-led content with strong, community-driven stories. Ultimately, I think you need both: a way for new people to find you, and high-quality content to keep them engaged and subscribed. Marketing of any kind is always easier when you’re selling a good product, so creating read/watch/shareworthy content will always be priority #1.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

Hit me up on [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilona-abramova/)! I’ll be quizzing you on your outreach skills. 😂

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## Bonus Question: What's your favorite way to eat avocado?

On toasted sourdough, with EVOO and Za’atar.



Ilona Abramova leads the Content Team at AppSumo. After years working in community management, copywriting and content strategy, she has learned many tricks on outbound messaging, a/b testing, and UX writing in the design process. Now she reveals them for The Grit by Avocode.

 Why words matter not just in marketing but also in design with Ilona Abramova, Head of Content at AppSumo

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The Grit - Ilona Abramova, Head of Content at AppSumo | Avocode Blog

Sara Kalinoski is a Product Design Lead with over 12 years experience from both agencies and in-house. After having crafted brand and product experiences for Apple, Audi, Visa, Medtronic, Contentful, Zalando, and most recently, Delivery Hero, she now shares her life story with Avocode for The Grit.

On continuous learning and the importance of mentorship with Sara Kalinoski from Delivery Hero

The Grit - Sara Kalinoski, Product Design Manager at Delivery Hero

## Hi Lubos. Let’s start with who you are and what you do?

Hey! I’m Luboš, a product designer based in Prague, Czech Republic. In the past 10 years, I’ve worked on the forefront of design with many influential global brands, including Netgear, UnitedHealthcare, and L’Oréal. When I am not designing, I am trying to educate the next generation of designers on my Instagram or mentorship sessions.

Currently, I’m leading one of the design teams at Toptal. In fact, I was the very first designer at the company working there for more than 7 years. I helped to establish key user interface frameworks, hired key design team members, and established the foundation for future product and brand development.

> In fact, I was the very first designer at Toptal, working there for more than 7 years.

## Tell me about how you got started and what led you into design?

In high school, I studied electrotechnical engineering, which was focused on math, physics, technical drawing, and design of electric circuits. I designed and successfully launched my own functional sound amplifier during my last year in high school. After high school, I went to the Czech Technical University to become an engineer.

However, at that time, I have discovered Photoshop (yes, Photoshop was used for interface design at the time) and my love for design and solving complex problems. I decided to take a leap of faith and quit the university to become a user interface designer.

At that time, my skills weren’t good enough, I locked myself at my room for almost one year, and I practiced on my own (free) imaginary projects, everything from web design to complex user interfaces. After one year, I started sharing my work on Dribbble, and I got a job offer from Silicon Valley-based startup; that’s how my long journey started. It was almost ten years ago.

> My skills weren’t good enough, I locked myself at my room for almost one year, and I practiced on my own (free) imaginary projects, everything from web design to complex user interfaces.

<Image src="71/1.png" caption="Moneto – Mobile Banking Application [In Development]" />

<Image src="71/2.png" caption="Moneto – Mobile Banking Brand Guidelines" />

## What did you do before you joining Toptal?

Before Toptal, I was working with digital agencies and also freelancing, mostly with the US-based clients, since the quality and overall startup culture (at that time) was way more developed over there. I touched everything from the user interface, branding to motion.

It was definitely a valuable part of my career since it gave me a strategic oversight of different design disciplines. That was later very valuable at Toptal.

<Image src="71/3.png" caption="Ntgr – Gaming Dashboard Interface" />

<Image src="71/4.png" caption="Ntgr – Gaming Dashboard Interface Guidelines" />

## You’re leading the Design team at Toptal right now. Can you briefly describe what Toptal is about and how your design team operates?

Sure. Toptal is an exclusive network of top freelance software developers, designers, finance experts, product managers, and project managers in the world.

I’m at Toptal for more than 7 years, so I have seen and helped the company to grow from 10 ppl to 650 ppl. My hiring process was straightforward, I got an email and skype call from the CEO, and I got hired almost immediately after that. That’s how my journey started.

The entire company is remote. Toptal is the world's largest fully distributed company. We do not have any office; our entire team is fully remote from day one. We got people from 126 countries, which is pretty impressive in my opinion.

At this scale, our operation is fully automated and driven by our [playbook](https://www.toptal.com/remote-work-playbook) and own tools developed specifically for us. Like most people, we use Zoom for all our meetings, and we always follow these rules to stay as productive as possible.

- Be flexible with time zones
- Have an agenda
- Keep your camera on
- Mute notifications
- Cancel or end early if needed
- Rate your meetings

We also use asynchronous work to our advantage. With asynchronous communication, a team member provides information, and the recipient sees and responds in their own time. Working this way helps maximize productivity when team members are located in very different timezones. In order to work asynchronously, we need to use the right set of tools. The most important ones are listed below.

- Zoom, Slack (Communication)
- Figma & Sketch (Design)
- Abstract (Version Control)
- Miro (Brainstorming)
- Google G Suite (Storage and Collaboration)
- Trello and Asana (Tasks)
- Confluence (Wiki)

## Tell us more about your role. What are your key responsibilities?

My focus changed over the years, based on the company's needs. In the beginning, my focus as the only designer was everything design-related, from the user interfaces to the website experience. However, my biggest focus was the design of the Platform UI (Platform is a proprietary piece of technology created to run all operations.).

After three years as the only designer, I started hiring, leading, and mentoring my own design team (UI/UX Designers, Illustrators). I end up hiring 7+ people to kickstart the Design Team at Toptal. A huge majority of them are nowadays at leading positions.

These days, when the Design Team and the entire organization are much bigger, we split into multiple design teams and lead one of the teams. My day to day work is focused on specific design problems, where I work with cross-functional teams to solve them. I am also involved in project planning, roadmaps, brainstormings with other functions, or hiring.

## As a Design Lead, how do you approach your designers' team to work with front-end developers successfully?

For me, it is communication and following the best practices. We always like to review our designs with developers early on, often there is a developer paired with the designer so they can collaborate and discuss the potential design challenges even in the lo-fi phase of the design. They can brainstorm potential solutions together even before showing the designs to the stakeholder. This more collaborative process allows us to avoid scope creeps and delays in the product releases. The cadence of these sync ups between developer and designer is determined after the official kickoff call, and it highly depends on the complexity of the project. However, the communication line between designers and developers needs to be always open with regular check-ins on progress.
Since we use Sketch for product design and our entire design system is hosted there, we also use the Abstract for version control and handoff. It currently suits best our workflow the best. However, that can change in the future as we try to stay flexible. We also track every single issue and task on Jira, and we document everything in the Confluence, which is used as our internal wiki. Developers are using Jira, LucidChart, and RetroBoard.

<Image src="71/5.png" caption="" />

## You’re very active on Instagram. How relevant, in your opinion, is self-promotion for designers?

In my opinion, it is more and more important these days. You are essentially building your digital brand, and followers are giving you more credibility. I’m not saying it is right; however, it is how it works. Social media helps you to get more points during the hiring process.

Along with that, social media or the audience, in general, is always valuable. Imagine you release a new product, or you need to get hired. In the past, my audience played a major role in the releases of my [digital products](https://ioswireframingkit.com/). They not only purchased my tools, but they also promoted it on their own social media, which helped me to generate even more sales. Obviously, this only applies if you create something which our audience cares about.

> Imagine you release a new product, or you need to get hired. In the past, my audience played a major role in the releases of my digital products.

## Why did you decide to go with Instagram?

Good question. I’m on Instagram from the beginning when everyone was posting selfies and photos of their food (try to scroll down my feed). However, over time, I found out that Instagram is a good way how you can engage with the audience and tell the stories. Plus, the audience over there is huge, not only designers but also potential clients. However, for the clients, it is usually working as validation, they will more likely not hire you directly on Instagram, but they are going to review your profile to see if you are a legitimate designer and if they can work with you. I highly encourage everyone to curate their social media since prospective clients and going to google their name and Instagram or Twitter will be the first thing that will popup.
Technically I am everywhere from Dribbble, Twitter to Youtube. But I do not post that often to these platforms. I plan to put more effort into Dribbble and Youtube later this year.

## Having in-depth knowledge of your Instagram target audience is an important part of every successful social media strategy. How do you find your target audience, and what are your targeting tactics to reach them?

Totally, it’s is the key. However, Instagram analytics tools are very limited. But my posts are always targeting designers (from juniors to seniors), I do not target clients. If you create a profile with valuable content, high-quality visual people are going to find you. For example, I was interviewed on 180k+ design [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN7dywl5wDxTu1RM3eJ_h9Q) channel, specifically due to my Instagram. Ran Segall, who is running the show, found me on Instagram. We started to chat in the DM and agreed on a short interview. This helped me to build an even bigger audience, plus I have a nice social proof for my portfolio.

I always try to follow and stay in touch with accounts with a similar niche and similar size. I engage with their posts, chat with them in the dm, or share their stories. Then they do the same for me, which allows me to reach their audience and eventually grow my account.

## How do you create content that grabs the attention of your audience and entices them to engage?

I always ask myself if this is a topic, I would like to read about and then create a post about it. It is that simple there is no magic behind that. However not every single post is successful, it is always hard to predict since the Instagram algorithm is unpredictable.

> I always ask myself if this is a topic, I would like to read about and then create a post about it. It is that simple there is no magic behind that.

My goal is to help designers to elevate their design skills or learn something new in a very short period of time. Instagram carousels are perfect for that since you need to focus only on the core of the problem and remove everything else. Below are a few examples of very successful ones:

- [7 Tips On Colors in Interface Design](https://www.instagram.com/p/BuBhhSPBEjl/)
- [7 Tips How To Get Started In Interface Design](https://www.instagram.com/p/Bu6MPJhhYM2/)
- [8 Great UI/UX Design Tips & Tricks](https://www.instagram.com/p/CAXpDxzFpAi/)
- [15 Best (Free) Google Fonts by the Numbers](https://www.instagram.com/p/B_UscJRFhrX/)

<Image src="71/6.png" caption="Example of my popular Instagram posts" />

## Repurposing content is a great way to bring back old ideas and make them fresh and new. How do you repurpose your Instagram content to be more consistent across all of your social media platforms?

I don’t do that often (I should I know). I have flexible design templates for almost everything (From Instagram to Twitter) these are usually used for some time until the next version is created.

## How long does it take to create quality social media content for you?

It takes anything between 1-4 hrs per post, but it depends if it’s a carousel or photo since each of them requires a different approach. For me, the most time consuming are the photos, since I have developed a very “sterile” style of the photos which require a lot of preparation and clean up before every photo shoot. I like to say that my table is popular on Instagram not me haha. I usually try to post twice a week, which allows me to focus on quality.

## Where do you get inspired?

I got two types of inspiration digital and offline one. For digital, it is usually [Dribbble](https://dribbble.com/), [Abduzeedo](https://abduzeedo.com/), [Awwwards](https://www.awwwards.com/websites/), or [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/projektmono/). I like to observe things there, collect mood boards inside the design tool, and then craft designs based on the inspiration and then iterate.

For the offline one, people around me such as my family, friends or colleagues. Then traveling to different countries or hiking. This type of inspiration is more like an influence that is not immediate and appears only after some time. For example, you see a certain pattern on the building at Lisbon, Portugal, and 5 months later, you use it in one of your projects.

## Give our audience 5 actionable tips if they think of kicking-off their Instagram game.

1. Share stuff you are passionate about
2. Set up a strict sharing schedule
3. Do not worry about every single detail, just post
4. Engage with your loyal audience (dm’s, comments, etc)
5. Instagram is not everything, do not forget about your own life

## Did you have any good mentors that helped you shape your design career?

I personally didn’t have any sort of mentor, I always have been learning by trial and error which was definitely harder and longer, however, it helped me to form my own process and perspectives without being a replica of someone.

I would give one advice to starting designers. Do not wait for the perfect moment and do not worry that others know more than you, take action. If you do not have a portfolio create your own practice projects (find a problem and solve it). If you do not know how to do something google that or read a book about it. Make it happen.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

You can follow me on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lubosvolkov), [Dribbble](https://dribbble.com/OtherPlanet), [Twitter](https://twitter.com/0therPlanet), or [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/lubosvolkov/).

## Bonus Question: Avocado vs. Guacamole?

Avocado!

Currently, I’m leading one of the design teams at Toptal. In fact, I was the very first designer at the company working there for more than 7 years. I helped to establish key user interface frameworks, hired key design team members, and established the foundation for future product and brand development.


 Lubos Volkov has founded the Design Team at Toptal, followed by more than 60,000 designers on Instagram. He has worked at the forefront of design with brands like Netgear, UnitedHealthcare, and L’Oréal. Now he reveals his career path story for Avocode.

How Lubos Volkov founded the Design Team at Toptal and built a 60+K Instagram following

The Grit - Lubos Volkov, Lead Designer at Toptal | Avocode Blog

Rania Svoronou is an awarded Design Director at IBM iX based in New York. She’s a global keynote/TEDx speaker, guest lecturer, industry mentor at some of the world’s best universities, and has been invited to judge and mentor across the world. Now she reveals her story for Avocode.

Rania Svoronou, Design Director at IBM iX on design mentorship, resilience, and finding your voice as a creative.

The Grit -  Rania Svoronou, Design Director at IBM iX | Avocode Blog


## Hi Gabriel. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

Hi, thanks for having me! “Where are you from?” is one of the hardest questions for me to answer. I've lived in 4 countries, 3 continents, and no less than 20 homes. Because of that, I've become quite comfortable with change and find myself seeking it every few years.

When I was eight years old, my parents, my brother, and I left Cuba, the country I was born, and moved to Costa Rica. From that moment on, I had to embrace the feeling of being an outsider. I carried that feeling while my family and I moved countless times to find our footing within Costa Rica, and eventually that same feeling propelled us to seek better opportunities in the US, the place I now call home. Being an outsider isn't so bad, though. It's helped me identify patterns in the ways we communicate and interact with one another while giving me the perspective to appreciate what we have.

## What’s your design journey? Walk us through it.

I always enjoyed drawing, especially to distract myself in school. In fact, here’s a fun story: in 8th grade, the local newspaper did a piece on me because I won a drawing contest of sorts. In the piece, they asked me what music I liked. I tried to sound cool and said “Nirvana” the reporter didn’t buy it and asked me if I listened to Shakira. I said “uhh, I guess so. Sure.” It took years to shake off the “Shakira Painter” nickname in school after that.

Anyway, my childhood interest in drawing and video games eventually led me to explore design in 9th grade and I’ve been obsessed with it ever since. I studied Graphic Design in college but I really fell in love with the rebellious nature of the tech industry in 2007. Back then, the world of design agencies seemed to me like a country club exclusive to the white men who sat in front of monochrome backgrounds preaching simplicity.

It was refreshing to discover the emerging industry of mobile apps, inventing their own rules, creating job titles and work cultures. I wanted to be a part of that! So, I changed my address on LinkedIn to California (I was living in Florida at the time), grabbed a Google Voice number with a California area code, and started applying for jobs there. That con job eventually landed me in Los Angeles for a year and eventually San Francisco where I lived my dream of being part of a startup with Automatic, a connected car company.


<Image src="67/1.png" />
My role at Automatic was to design everything from the app’s UI, packaging, website, and even the door sign. I learned a ton and got the opportunity to flex all the design muscles I’d been building until that point.


<Image src="67/2.jpg" />

## In 2014, you joined Facebook as a Product Designer. Tell me about that.

Shortly after launching Automatic, a Facebook recruiter reached out for lunch. I didn’t speak recruiter lingo at the time and startup money wasn’t exactly abundant, so I said yes to a free meal! Turns out “lunch” was code for “an interview with a few of their designers in a closed room” — good to know! I totally bombed it (obviously), but was really impressed by the people I met that day. After a couple years of leading design for Automatic, I felt I had given it my all and needed to take some time to be a part of a larger team where I could learn from really smart people and level up my skills. So I asked that recruiter if we could grab “lunch.”

<Image src="67/3.png" />

After joining Facebook, I quickly found that I thrive in small teams where I can influence the culture and product vision. Luckily, they really encouraged mobility across the company at the time, so I found myself hopping between projects every few months. I was lucky to be a part of their well-oiled products like Pages, Photos, and Composer as well as other more experimental projects like Virtual Reality. I even moved to London for a year to lead a small project and help build their design team.

Working at Facebook was a truly expansive experience. It taught me the impact Design can have in the world and some lessons for effective communication that I’ve carried with me since. One of my favorites is: avoid surprises. I used to take so much pride in revealing a “brilliant” idea to my team in a meeting. Working at a large company, I learned to build incremental buy-in by slowly introducing ideas to my team. That way, when the whole team encounters it, it becomes an evolution of the collective thinking the group has already been doing.

> I used to take so much pride in revealing a “brilliant” idea to my team in a meeting. Working at a large company, I learned to build incremental buy-in by slowly introducing ideas to my team. That way, when the whole team encounters it, it becomes an evolution of the collective thinking the group has already been doing.

## Why did you move to Facebook's VR Design team? Who made the decision?

I loved my experience in the Facebook VR team. When I joined, I was as novice as it gets when it came to VR and 3D design. Luckily, the team was designed with diversity in mind, not just of race and gender but also of skillsets. Thanks to that, I was able to lean on my experience building products at scale to compliment the VR/3D skills other team members had.

<Image src="67/4.png" />

Over time, I got comfortable enough with Unity to make a few prototypes and eventually grew to lead design for the company’s first VR apps: Facebook 360 and Facebook Spaces. We were a scrappy team of 2 designers when I joined, but after two years we grew to 12. That team evolved Facebook VR from a small app into a metaverse-building juggernaut leading the VR conversation and steadily making progress towards a future reality unbound from physics.

## Why did you decide to leave Facebook and join Alphabet’s Jigsaw?

Like I mentioned at the beginning, I’m energized by change. After four years of amassing knowledge and valuable skills at Facebook, I felt inclined to apply those skills towards a cause that I was more closely aligned with. At the time, Jigsaw was a small team within Alphabet, tasked with using technology to help at-risk communities feel safer in the world. We worked on projects that tackled disinformation, online security, censorship, and online harassment.

I joined to lead a VR-focused project at first and eventually helped them manage the Design and Research teams across the company. At Jigsaw, I learned that we don’t need to compromise our values to make good, interesting design work. There are plenty of opportunities out there to be impactful, move the design industry forward, and make the world a better place. It’s a good reminder for us to peer outside the Silicon Valley bubble (possible even within a Silicon Valley company, surprisingly!) and apply our superpowers for good.

## What was your next destination after Jigsaw?

After a couple years at Jigsaw I felt the itch to go back to a startup environment, this time a little older, wiser, and with a mission-driven mindset. I joined Canopy, a startup founded by a few tech veterans who were eager for a private alternative to the data-mining personalization algorithms that plague the internet today.

<Image src="67/5.png" />

## What was your role at Canopy?

My role as Head of Design was to build the brand and help turn the team’s ambitions into a minimum lovable product: Tonic, a daily selection of personalized reads. The app used a mix of private on-device machine learning with human curation to recommend five things to read every day.

Canopy wasn’t like every other tech startup, though. It had privacy engrained at its core and through it I was given a blank canvas to introduce new mobile patterns that prioritized user trust over engagement. We documented a few of those and coined them [Sensible Design](https://uxdesign.cc/sensible-design-making-ethically-personalized-digital-products-2ac83ceac2a4). Tonic was our first foray into the Sensible recommendation space and it grew to have a small but dedicated audience. As a result, we were acquired by CNN in early 2020 to carry on that work and dream of a new news product that is designed with these principles at the center.

## What projects are you currently working on at CNN? What is your main focus?

As Director of Design for NewsCo, a CNN Digital’s Emerging Products and Platforms initiative, I am responsible for leading its user experience team, which includes Design and User Research. Our team is small, right now there’s about twenty of us at NewsCo and three in the UX team: two designers and one user researcher. Our team was founded with the goal of rethinking how we consume news and align it with the way information flows in 2020.

The Canopy team was acquired in April 2020, at the heart of the COVID-19 crisis, so we’ve been distributed since we started. Like most companies out there today, we’ve had to learn how to work from home in the midst of a global pandemic, plus adapt to the integration of the acquisition. Luckily, everyone at CNN has been extremely flexible and accommodating to WFH realities and made the process as smooth as it can be.

Needless to say, 2020 has been a newsworthy year and CNN has been an invaluable institution to help us navigate these turbulent times. It’s been an honor to form a small part of that team and help shape its future. I hope to be able to share more about what we’re working on when it’s ready!

## What has been the most significant learning to date from your career path?

The journey from a small startup at Automatic, then to large companies at Facebook and Google, then back for a short stint at small company at Canopy before joining yet another large company at CNN has been nothing short of exciting! If I had to choose, the connective tissue between those experiences is that they’re all guided by a motivation to grow, explore the ways in which we relate with technology, and ultimately build a better future.

My focus on growth has helped me find opportunities to continuously challenge myself when I feel too comfortable in a role. The downside of that is that I never truly feel like I know what I’m doing, since I jump to something else when I’m close to mastering it. The upside, however, is that I’ve been exposed to a prolific number of opportunities and roles whether it’s through personal side projects, virtual reality, emerging technologies, social good, or design leadership.

## Did you have any good mentors that helped you shape your design career?

I think most mentors serve that role without knowing. For me, I’ve had the fortune of cross paths with two really great people who’ve shaped the way I think about design.

[Daniel Burka](https://danielburka.com/) is a close friend and someone I’ve learned a ton from. When I joined Facebook in 2014, Daniel invited me for lunch at the Google Ventures office, where he worked as a Design Partner at the time. We were overlooking the Bay Bridge from the cafeteria and Daniel said something that I still think about today. He said something like: “Don’t get too comfortable. Don’t buy a Mini Cooper and live that lifestyle. It’s really hard to step back from it once you do.” There’s a ton of pressure to fit in when you join a large tech company; buy a Tesla, get a Peloton, go to meetings, and chase that performance review. Daniel’s advice rang in the back of my head throughout my experience at a large company and gave me the perspective I needed to keep growing. That allowed me to stay nimble enough to be exposed to more experiences, which I’m really grateful for.

Someone else that I’ve learned a lot from is [Charlie Sutton](http://www.charlie-sutton.com/), who is currently the VP & Head of Design for the Facebook app. I worked closely with Charlie when he led the VR team at Facebook and learned so many invaluable lessons from him. Namely, how to be patient and nurture harmony within a team. Not only does Charlie have an infinitely charming common wealth accent, he also has a unique eye for design and an even better eye for people. Witnessing how he balanced people and craft should be a required master class for all designers. Charlie taught me how to plant the seed of an idea in a team, then carefully water it to see it flourish as something bigger than you set it out to be. It’s no coincidence that he’s grown to be such an essential part of the entire company.

## How do you educate yourself?

I like to aim to be embarrassed by my six-month-old self every six months. That is to say, I try to find opportunities for education in everything I do, from the way I communicate, to how I formulate ideas, and manifest designs. That started by formally studying design from 16 years old, and continued as I surrounded myself with people smarter and more talented than me all the time. I try to curate Twitter to minimize the hot takes and virtue-signaling and instead elevate the many people who generously share ideas with our community. Admittedly, the public arena has gotten difficult to navigate and writing a tweet can feel like a high stakes game of Floor is Lava with your career. Luckily, I have a small group of peers and friends that appreciates the exploration of new ideas from whom I learn a ton every day.

## What excites you about design in 2020?

This year feels like the beginning of a new normal. Going back to the way things were before feels like a distant platonic wish. I’m excited about what’s to come because it must be different than everything that preceded us. In terms of Design, I’m excited for what this global distributed experiment will do to the way we work and how we balance work and life. We have an opportunity to rewrite some rules, it’s up to all of us to make sure they’re an improvement, though.

## What’s an interesting or fun fact about yourself we wouldn’t find on your social media?

I struggle to think that anything I do is interesting, but—if you must know—I keep a log of everything noteworthy I've done at [gabrielvaldivia.com/timeline](https://www.gabrielvaldivia.com/timeline). I find it useful to check in on whether I've accomplished what I wanted each year. The answer to that question isn't always “yes” but it's a fun way to hold myself accountable.

## What do you like to do when you’re not working?

I love playing, producing, and mixing music. Before doubling down on design, I played bass in several bands for over a decade. I love bass because it's what connects rhythm and melody and—just like design—it’s best when you don't notice it. Unfortunately, it's not so fun to play bass on your own. So now that I don't have the time to find a band, I dabble on guitar, drums, and the beep-boops in Logic. I released a solo album in 2019 called [Blankets](https://open.spotify.com/album/0z6r9g2LkTGGBV7A3BLRra?si=lPvjx_MQSNGp66ltIbYbfQ) and have been working on a follow-up this year during nights and weekends.

## Bonus Question: What is your favorite avocado dessert?

I… don’t like avocados or dessert! I somehow didn’t develop a sweet tooth at all, so my diet consists of extremely bland food like rice, bread, and popcorn. My friends tease me for eating only brown-colored food, so I wrote [a song](https://open.spotify.com/track/1e0sAbn8lPWQxy6ilu4nqM?si=Oej4m2PGSACc9UhDMlvW-Q) about it.

Gabriel Valvidia is a Cuban designer based in New York City, currently serving as the Head of Design at Canopy where we're building a new recommendation architecture for a better internet.

Using a growth mindset to advance in your career with Gabriel Valdivia

The Grit - Gabriel Valdivia, Director of Design for NewsCo | Avocode Blog

Brian Lovin is a designer, developer, podcaster, wannabe writer, and internet tinkerer. He's currently building things at GitHub, specifically working on the new iOS and Android mobile apps.

Meet Brian Lovin, Product Designer at GitHub and Co-host of Design Details Podcast

 The Grit - Brian Lovin, Product Designer at GitHub

## Welcome, David. Happy to have you on The Grit. Let’s start with a quick introduction. What is your role today?

I tell people all the time that I have the best role at Webflow! I’m currently the Director of Design, where I work with our Brand Studio and Product Design teams. In addition to getting to work with these two great teams, I’ve been focused on getting our user research initiatives started.

In addition to Webflow I teach UXD part-time at General Assembly and do some advising/coaching.

<Image src="64/1.jpeg" caption="Photo of David’s UXD class at General Assembly." />

## Cool stuff. Let's go through your design journey. How did it all start?

A common theme in my career is “unexpected journeys”, that’s for sure. Growing up in the Pacific Northwest, technology and creativity was always fostered. My parents are Vietnamese refugees and focused on providing my brother and me the opportunities they didn’t have. A lot of this ended up with many extracurricular activities. I partially think they did this so we couldn’t get into trouble because we were so busy with sports, music, martial arts, and art class. With this, I ended up studying Studio Art in college with an emphasis in Drawing and Painting.

My career path was to go to grad school, earn my Master of Fine Arts (MFA) in hopes of teaching at a university like my professors taught me. The school I went to encouraged being a generalist, so the curriculum forced us to take things you might ordinarily take in a traditional painting course. Computer Art was one of those courses. I also learned to code as part of a sculpture project (yes, sculpture) that was an interactive project around how people portray themselves on the internet (this was during the MySpace era).

> A common theme in my career is “unexpected journeys“.

I earned my Bachelor of Fine Arts and graduated before the 2008 recession. In addition to that, there was this emerging platform called iPhone OS that really enabled a new career path for me. At the time, I wasn’t sure if this iPhone would take off, but it gave me the opportunity to start with app design. Since most of the production was still done in Photoshop at the time, I leveraged the skills I learned in Computer Art and working in our school’s Mac lab to get my foot in the door.

After various roles, I got the chance to fulfill the dream of starting a company with one of my best friends. We’ve known each other since we were nine years old and he’s a software engineer. We created our own product company and got to work with some pretty amazing clients. I was doing this in 2012 with him when I was based in New York City, and he was in the mountains in Oregon, so I’ve been doing remote for quite a while.

Running a company and having your own business is one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life. After several years of doing this together, I had a desire to move back in-house. My mentor Marie took a role at HTC, and I joined her, this time focused on creative and marketing. I joined Black Pixel as the Director of Design and returned back to client services. This was my first director role in my career and worked a lot on mobile applications for some really cool Fortune 500 companies.

> Running a company and having your own business is one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life.

After my time was over at Black Pixel, I took a bit of a mini-sabbatical (highly recommend to anybody who can do this) to do some contracting. I started working with One Medical, where I got to work on the design of virtual care services, including video visits. After many months of working with them as a contractor, I felt the opportunity was too great to pass up to join full-time. After my last two jobs being around one year, I wasn’t sure how long I would be at One Medical. It turned out to be my longest tenure at any company, not my own, and spent four amazing years there.

Fast forward to now, where I’m at Webflow!

## Wow, what a journey! What has been the most significant learning to date from your career path?

My top advice to designers is do not feel like you have to be contained in a certain mold and to try as many different roles as possible. I spent a year at HTC working with my mentor, who joined there as the creative director. This was a shift from running my own product design company to working in global digital marketing. I remember being worried about how I would be viewed in the job market switching over to marketing. It ended up really helping my career as I then had first-hand experience working in brand, marketing, and product design.

> My top advice to designers is do not feel like you have to be contained in a certain mold and to try as many different roles as possible.

The accumulation of your experience is going to guide your career and what makes you unique as a designer.

I think if I were to go back, I would have spent more time working at startups for the same reason I spent so much of my career in client services. Both startups and agencies are fast-paced environments and give you a lot of variety.

As a liberal arts major, my greatest takeaway is the notion of learning how to learn. In many classes, the work was applied vs. theoretical. Often many projects you aspired to create required you to learn a new skill or concept you were never familiar with. At a certain point, you build your learning framework to develop your own personal growth.

> Both startups and agencies are fast-paced environments and give you a lot of variety.

## What is the main focus of your design team? How does your creative process look like?

Even pre-COVID-19, our Design team was pretty remote, to begin with. Our designers span from being in the local San Francisco office and over in Moscow. Our team is currently 14 (9 on product design and 5 on brand design), and we try to collaborate pretty often as a team.

<Image src="64/2.png" caption="Webflow Team Tapestry activity at a remote offsite." />

One of the biggest challenges of remote is you have to try your best to create serendipity. Sarah, one of our product design managers, created a great idea called Design Studio on Friday’s. It’s an optional Zoom session for the entire day where designers can join to work quietly “next to each other”, get feedback, and ideate. The team is constantly thinking of different ways to find ways to foster collaboration to have the best of both worlds of synchronous and asynchronous work.

## What projects are you currently working on at Webflow?

We’re at a pretty exciting time at Webflow where we’re embarking on some interesting problems. We’re currently focusing on expanding our capabilities for our customers and working on how we can provide multiple offerings for them to do what they do best, which is to innovate with our product. In addition to these new capabilities, we believe that continuous improvement is important. We’re looking at existing features and finding ways to improve to ensure previous features do not get lost.

Design has this great opportunity where we can do some deep research on what we’re prioritizing for years to come. One of the funnest challenges I see is to figure out how we can increase the ease of use for new people on the platform while not sacrificing the power and flexibility of it.

> One of the funnest challenges I see is to figure out how we can increase the ease of use for new people on the platform while not sacrificing the power and flexibility of it.

## How do you use Webflow in your design process?

One of the things I’ve been pushing since at Webflow is finding ways to innovate by using our own product on a daily basis. There are so many reasons and opportunities for us to do this. I think the most important one is it truly builds empathy with our customers. Any time we can, we use the product like our customers would, not simply for quality assurance and testing. For example, I send weekly announcements to the design team. Initially, they were Slack messages I’d send and now have since evolved it into building it as an internal blog using our CMS.

<Image src="64/3.png" caption="Webflow CMS interface." />

We have a few designers who use Webflow as their primary prototyping tool. It’s always funny to see the frame of our designer in the frame of our designer.

## What's been the most significant hidden benefit to using Webflow, in your opinion?

You learn a lot about how to code through the osmosis of using Webflow. With no code, you can know code! I believe what makes Webflow’s experience unique is it very much respects the best practices of software creation and web development. Even before joining the company, I was always impressed with how good the code is when you export projects. With that, it allows people to learn about code as they’re developing visually.

> With no code, you can know code!

As an educator, I use Webflow to teach students how to build software. It’s so powerful for people to visualize how they build. As someone who learned through many visual programming tools such as Dreamweaver, HyperCard, and Quartz Composer, I think it’s a great way to get started whether you continue to learn code or not.

<Image src="64/4.jpg" caption="Screenshot of HyperCard" />

## Should front-end developers use Webflow despite they already know how to code?

Absolutely! Would you still use autopilot in a car despite knowing how to drive? I think the conversation about No Code can be somewhat polarizing. People often feel like you have to pick a side. I often like to remind people that Webflow itself is built on code (*gasp*) and that the goal is to break the barrier from needing to know how to in order to create, build, and express on the internet. Whether you know front end code or not, I highly encourage people to use Webflow to ship their ideas. Also, how many times have we had the paradox of choice of what front end framework to use as if we’re browsing titles on Netflix?

> How many times have we had the paradox of choice of what front end framework to use as if we’re browsing titles on Netflix?

Witnessing how seamlessly our customers can get an idea shipped has been truly amazing. When COVID-19 hit, we saw so many people from the community rapidly create and deploy ideas, varying from tips on how to prevent the spread of the Corona Virus or resources helping people job-seeking as a result of layoffs. To me, that’s the power of Webflow. If you have an idea, you can design it, publish it, and iterate extremely quickly.

## Last one about Webflow, what should young designers know when they want to work in your team?

I look for are people who like to learn, play, and have fun! Especially during times like this, it’s important to have that environment you look forward to going to every day with people whose company you enjoy. I think in addition, if you like bridging disciplines, I think Webflow is a great place for you. Many of our product managers used to be designers or engineers, and some of our designers are product-centric. When you’re working on an experience that bridges the gap between design and engineering, it’s great to have people who like to think deeply about this space.

## You offer 1:1 coaching on design management, experience prototyping, and org design. How did you come up with this idea, and how is it going for you?

Similar to many things in my career, this happened unexpectedly! I do this with only a few people at a time to be fully involved in their journey.

As an individual contributor in my career, my emphasis was on research and prototyping. I found it to be the thing that continued to follow me no matter where I went. I found that it was something people didn’t really teach or foster and found an opportunity to do workshops around experience prototyping. In addition to that, I really love working with people thinking of going into management or are first-time managers. Being a people manager can often be pretty isolated and I felt it was important to provide a service where people can train and learn outside of their organizations.

## You worked on three iOS apps that were featured by Apple. Can you give us a glimpse of how did you pull that off?

This question takes me back down memory lane!

I feel so fortunate to work on three apps that were featured by Apple, especially in the early days. The first one was **Paper’d** (One Jamie Varon actually designed, and I helped with some production). This was so early in the iOS days when there was only one screen size (shout out to 320x480!). It was such a surreal moment early in my career to be a part of an app that was featured by Apple. I’ll never forget that feeling.

> This was so early in the iOS days when there was only one screen size (shout out to 320x480!).

**Vowch** was an app focused on empowering tastemakers to share the latest swag, items, and trends on mobile. I worked with the co-founders on taking their v1 of their app to the next phase. This also coincided with the switch from iOS 6 to iOS 7, when the skeuomorphic design language was de-emphasized. I am vividly remembering flattening a lot of things during that time!

My favorite app featured by Apple has to be **Shelby’s Quest**. This was an iPad app developed by my company with an occupational therapist (who has a dog named Shelby, in case you’re wondering). Her vision was to build an experience for children with autism to practice their motor skills on the iPad. I loved this project because of the impact it made on learning and education. In addition, it was the most collaborative project I had with a client, working with her on coming up with the concept, our team creating the illustration language, and getting it featured by Apple.

<Row col="2">
  <Image src="64/5-1.png" caption="Screenshot of the salmon run on Shelby’s Quest back in 2012" />
  <Image src="64/5-2.jpg" caption="Source: <a href='https://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/oak-harbor-therapist-completes-quest-to-educate-with-technology/'>whidbeynewstimes.com</a>" />
</Row>

## How do you think that your career and job will evolve in the next 5 years?

I think in the next 5 years, designers will need to go even deeper on end-to-end customer experience, extensibility for users, and really contribute to company initiatives such as org design and people experience. Customer experiences are becoming more integrated, and the channels aren’t as separate they used to be. It’s not uncommon for a customer to have multiple touchpoints on a daily basis on different surfaces (whether it’s mobile, in-office, or email). I believe designers who are attuned to CX will do really well.

Extensibility is something products even outside of no code will have to consider. Now more than ever, customers are going to have options on how they build out their tech stack. Products that have the ability to integrate and expand capabilities for customers provide scale and flexibility. I’m also hoping designers will continue to play a bigger role in contributing to company initiatives. For example, the onboarding experience for any company has so many design decisions, and having people apply design to it adds a tremendous amount of value.

> Now more than ever, customers are going to have options on how they build out their tech stack.

For my own career, I honestly feel like I’m living the dream now. I want to keep doing what I’m doing at a higher level and more expansive. I really enjoy what I do and have some long-term ambitions I’m hoping to build towards. In addition to design leadership, I really want to focus on angel investing and education, plenty to work on for many years to come!

## Why do you do what you do? What makes it worth it and meaningful to you?

I essentially view my life purpose to be helping people take an idea and bring it to reality in this world, and design is such a great vehicle for that. There have been times I’ve pondered what else I’d want to do and I can’t think of anything else. I’m very grateful that I get to work with design and designers on a daily basis in various parts of their career journeys (whether it’s at Webflow or teaching).

## What excites/worries you about design in 2020?

Oh, where to start with 2020…it’s been, a year, that’s for sure.

I think what both excites and worries me is where designers will take a stand on ethics and impact. Designers have often talked about wanting to influence and have a seat at the table, and now is the time to really make an impact. We’re seeing the conversation about systemic racism and injustice. The system is not broken; it’s working as designed. Someone designed it in this way, and the next generation of designers have the opportunity to be on the right side of history in what they design and influence.

> The system is not broken; it’s working as designed.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

I’m making a greater effort to post more content on my personal website (built on Webflow of course). You can find it at [davidhoang.com](http://davidhoang.com/). If not on my website, I’m often on Twitter and can be found [@davidhoang](http://twitter.com/davidhoang) and a newsletter I work on called [Proof of Concept.](https://davidhoang.substack.com/people/5501267)

## Bonus Question: What's your favorite way to eat an avocado?

Simple….on a sushi roll!

David Hoang is currently the Head of Design at Webflow where he manages brand and product design teams. He also teaches UXD at General Assembly. He’s worked on numerous iOS apps and lead Product Design at One Medical.

David Hoang on managing a world-wide remote team at Webflow & bringing ideas to reality

The Grit - David Hoang, Design Director at Webflow | Avocode ...

Chetana Deorah is the Director of Product Design at Coursera. Previously, she lead product design for growth at Netflix, Scribd, and Yahoo. She is very passionate about design education and the impact of product design on human well-being.