Learn from the best designers and developers from companies like Dribbble, Intercom, or Product Hunt. Every week we interview skilled and experienced professionals in your favorite field.

The Grit - Interviews with best designers and developers by Avocode

## Hi Marisa, tell us a little about yourself and what you do.

Hello! My name is Marisa and I'm currently a Product Designer at TikTok. Previously, I led design team at an early-stage startup through an acquisition. I also create short-form content about design, tech, and lifestyle on TikTok. 

When I'm not out on my paddleboard, I run Workology, an ergonomic lifestyle brand, and Mesh Times, a curated design merch store. 

After hours, I travel between the world of web3 and web2, creating NFTs and digital tokens for a good cause. 

## How did you get into Product Design?

Growing up, I watched my mom built a fashion label from scratch. She did everything from sketching, material sourcing, production, and QA. My understanding of the design process started from there. My allowance was spent mostly on art supplies. 

After an art boarding high school, I was naturally eased into fashion design and decided to major in apparel & textiles in college. My mom wanted me to take over her label after I graduated. 

Towards the end of my senior year, I found myself feeling uneasy about the process and how fashion was more about the expression, and users weren't really considered in the design process. Simply put, it was aesthetics over utility. This sparked my interest in human-centered design. 

While I was trying to familiarize myself with product design, I started a Kickstarter project called Mesh. It is a modular piece of fabric to allow people to invent their own fashion items and it's not just a regular fashion artifact but an item that grows with people's needs. Here, I learned how to transport user's needs into a product. 

<Image  caption="A Kickstarter Project I raised 11K+ for grad school" alt="A Kickstarter Project I raised 11K+ for grad school" src="https://avocode-mailing.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mailing-app/newsletter/mebuilding.gif" external/>

From that point on, I started a podcast, "Design Picnic" with a friend from middle school. Through countless recording sessions, I was able to meet so many design experts whom I called friends and mentors today. 

## How did you find your first Product Design job?

### Pivotal moment

Instead of cold applying, I was doing everything I could think of to get in front of hiring managers. After asking around, Twitter was where most senior designers and design leads hang out so I sent out a tweet saying something like:

<Image  alt="Twitter" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-production/Screen_Shot_2021_08_14_at_10_39_26_PM_8b02132d55.png" external/>

In addition to that — to each hiring manager, I also created a customized resume where I wrote a story of why I want to work there. The response was very positive and rewarding.

### The results

Not only did I get referrals, but people were also giving constructive feedback on my portfolio as well as connecting me to hiring managers. I landed over 10+ interviews with 3 offers at the end. 

### What did you learn

- Look for the side door when the front door shuts you out. Pivot when you need to.
- We as product designers iterate on design all the time but we often overlooked ourselves and our professional journey. If the current process doesn't work out for you → you need to pivot.
- Think about your target demographics. A resume will only get you through the recruiter but it's actually the hiring managers you want to impress.

## How did you get from there to joining TikTok?

I knew that I wanted to work at a startup but also somewhere big enough where there's a solid design community when I need to seek feedback. TikTok is growing rapidly and they happened to have a job opening at the time and I just applied with my TikTok and customized resume that I made specifically for them. 

<Image  caption="A TikTok Resume I personalized for the job" alt="A TikTok Resume I personalized for the job" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-production/tiktok_resume_3b0bd02ac0.png" external/>

## You joined TikTok not that long ago, can you tell us more about your Product Designer role there?

We’re at a pretty exciting time at Tiktok, the platform is growing like crazy and it’s been the most downloaded app for the 4th month in a row. It’s been super fun and inspiring to be in a hyper growth company like this. I’m currently working on multiple verticals from login & onboarding experience to the new AR initiatives.

As a product designer at TikTok, I work very closely with PMs, Engineers, UX writers, and Data. I create end-to-end user flows and provide multiple design solutions based on user needs, business goals, and technical constraints to get buy-ins from different stakeholders.

My day-to-day typically involves checking in with the team and making design changes as needed to the PRD, catching up with the engineers, heads down designing and also contributing to the team design system. Twice a week, we also run design critiques where designers on the team regularly give and receive feedback. Every quarter, I would have to present key learnings within the team and larger XFN groups as well.

> Twice a week, we run design critiques where designers on the team regularly give and receive feedback. 

Another thing that I really enjoy about working at TikTok is being surrounded by so many talented teammates. I’ve been learning from them more than I did back in design school! Every Monday during our stand-up, we each would share our favorite TikTok that we watched over the weekend. Most of the team is based in LA and our off-site ranges from beach picnics to online circus experience.

## How did I get into content creation?

I have always been camera shy but during the beginning of the pandemic, my friend told me to download TikTok. After browsing and poking around, I realized no one has tapped into Product Design content just yet. I took this as a sign and grabbed the @productdesign handle on TikTok without thinking twice. The account has been growing rapidly with 124K followers within one year.

<Image alt="TikTok" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/tiktok_8f0396293c.png" external/>

## Why did you choose to create your content for TikTok and not some other platform?

Through talking to Gen Zs who want to break into design and tech, I found out that Twitter can be quite an intimidating place for someone with no experience. While you can find a lot of educational design threads on Twitter, most designers on the platform are at senior, lead, executive levels making it hard for Gen Zs to connect with them. 

I saw an opportunity in a short-form content platform like Tiktok and took a stab at it. The results after one year have been very rewarding. I have helped over 2K high school students break into the design early and people from other professions transitioned into the design. 

> I have helped over 2K high school students break into the design early and people from other professions transitioned into the design. 

## What type of content do you make on TikTok?

I have been experimenting with many different types of content. But these are the most successful ones:

- How to transition from another profession to Product Design?
- How to begin your Product Design journey early even if your college doesn't have a Human-Centered Design major?
- Resources to improve your design skills
- How to present your design work internally and during interviews
- Design memes

## What would be your advice to someone who wants to start creating content?

### Create a brand for yourself

Start off by building your brands and identifying your personal value and key audiences. Remember that your 9-5 job title doesn't have to label who you are after hours or on the weekend. Even if you are a Product Designer with less than 1 year of experience, it doesn't mean that you can't create content around your post-grad journey. Trust me, so many people will be able to relate to your hardships and struggles rather than your shiny job offer. 

> Many people will be able to relate to your hardships and struggles rather than your shiny job offer. 

### Knowing what your audience wants

The most important thing is to identify who your main audience is and what niche you want to zero in on. Do you want to create content for UX researchers, design system designers, or designers going into management level? 

**Areas to consider:**

- Technical design skills (prototyping, roadmapping)
- Soft design skills (building your team, managing)
- Industry/vertical expertise (fintech, health tech, b2b)

The next thing that I found helpful was to create a quick and dirty research on your audience. I regularly post a "Ask me anything" on my instagram story. I start by noting down all the questions I get asked often. If there is a repetition, I will create a video for it.

### Platform 

Talking in front of a video camera is not for everyone. There are endless platforms you can leverage. For those who are camera-shy, you can create content that comes in the form of written, podcast, or audio content. For those who are more outgoing and don't like to take themselves seriously then maybe Instagram Reels or TikTok might be right for you. You can also sell online courses in bite-sized pieces that people can digest in their free time like Patreon. The lesson here is to learn which medium works best for you and just go for it!

<Image  caption="Podcast/ Youtube I worked on with my fellow Product Designer friends." alt="Podcast/ Youtube I worked on with my fellow Product Designer friends." src="https://avocode-mailing.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mailing-app/newsletter/designchallenge.gif" external/>

# Bonus Question: What’s your favorite way to eat an avocado?

On a toast with smoked salmon and a pinch of salt and pepper 🥑

Marisa Chentakul is a Product Designer at TikTok by day and a content creator for the platform in her spare time. Marisa's focus is the design community, and her account featuring educational and valuable content grew rapidly to over 124,000 followers within a year. We asked her about her role at TikTok and for advice on creating your brand as a designer. 

Creating valuable Content for the Design Community with Marisa Chentakul from TikTok

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The Grit - Marisa Chentakul, Product Designer at TikTok

## Hey Ramon, let's start with you telling us a little about yourself. 

Hey, thanks for having me, it's truly an honor to be featured in this series, as some of the folks that have been interviewed here have, directly or indirectly, helped me so much during my career.

I am Ramon Gilabert, an interaction designer from Tàrrega, a small town close to Barcelona. I am currently designing [Lobe](https://lobe.ai ) at Microsoft, and I have worked for companies such as Red Bull, Intersport, IKEA, and Domino's in the past.

<Image  caption="Lobe" alt="Lobe" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Final_597d33fcaf.jpeg" external/>

My background is a bit non-traditional, since even though my passion for computers was clear since I was 10 - tinkering with the inside of my black Pentium IV, changing computer parts, or building my first websites for (or about) Greenpeace - I ended up studying Electronic Engineering, something that was not related pretty much at all to the things I liked.

I pretty much detested my degree until the very end, but with some money I had made during a couple of summer jobs, I bought my first Mac, installed Photoshop, Sketch 1, TacoHTML, and Xcode, and that changed my life forever.

> I bought my first Mac, installed Photoshop, Sketch 1, TacoHTML, and Xcode, and that changed my life forever.

## Let's hear more about this. Tell us about your path to becoming a designer.
I was born in a nation that values sports more than anything else, and I clearly remember seeing my first football pitch when I was 8. "Mom, I want to play here, too". Like everybody else around me, becoming a soccer star was one of those early dreams you have, but something that changed quite radically as soon as I saw my first website in our Pentium IV at home.

I remember being 10 and discovering Google.com, going to Hotmail.com and creating my Messenger account, and going to Apple.com and configuring the dream computer I truly wanted. Above all, though, I remember reading about Greenpeace and wanting to give back to it in a way a 10-year-old could give back… so I created a website in a drag and drop service that allowed you to do read-only sites. My mom, fearing what Greenpeace would do to me, made me take it down, but the train never stopped from that point on, and the next stop, was to download Photoshop.

Online games had started to come out back then -it was around 2004 -and each game had an online forum attached to it, so you could post battles and meet people with the same interests as you had. I didn't know much English so I'd use my English to Catalan dictionary to translate the words that people used to type. I discovered a section in one of those forums that said "Signatures" - in it, people would compete head to head to see who had the most beautiful signature, and I wanted to be part of that, so I downloaded Photoshop, and I started doing signatures for online games, taking part in competitions, reading about Photoshop tutorials, asking people for their tricks, and downloading lots of renders from DeviantArt to blend in my creations.

Design at that point for me was art - and the only thing I had - was the drive to do something beautiful in the world I had just discovered online.

After a while, the iPhone was announced, and I remember seeing videos on this new website called YouTube about the camera animation, the keyboard recognition, and the overall interface that some folks at Apple had created. It was clear to me at that point that I wanted to create something for it - so I started reading about Objective C, much later Swift, Photoshop, and much later Sketch, and then, the whole world of design, from prototyping to interaction, visual and graphic design.

## That's quite a story. Where did it lead you? What are you doing now? 
I am currently working at Microsoft designing Lobe, a free, easy-to-use tool that lets you train custom machine learning models that you can later use in your app. Lobe makes machine learning accessible to everyone, not just a small group of experts with deep knowledge of data science and code.

What's interesting is that machine learning has often been thought of as a technology, but in reality, it's just a tool that has been sitting around in a dusty corner of scientists offices for the past 30 years, and, though the potential of that technology can, and will define the direction our world takes in the coming years, it has mostly been left out to just a small group of people. 

With Lobe, we wanted to empower anybody to incorporate machine learning into their apps, so we made it universal, free and private.

Beyond Lobe, I try to regularly launch and support small side projects, such as a weekly podcast in Catalan called Safareig (safareig.fm) or a website to see the current state of fully vaccinated people in the world called [Vacunat](https://vacun.at).

## Can you describe your role at Lobe in more detail? 
Machine learning will be in every pipeline and in every piece of software we create in the future, not only assisting and automating parts of it, but maybe creating the software itself. GitHub launched Copilot not long ago.

At Lobe, we are striving to empower more individuals to use machine learning, first with vision and images, and later by working on supporting more problem types and reducing the friction to get started with those. Lobe makes collecting data, labeling, training and using your model seamless, the same way shooting and editing a movie feels seamless with the iPhone.

Not too long ago, we partnered with [Adafruit](https://www.lobe.ai/blog/machine-learning-kit-with-adafruit ) to launch a Raspberry Pi kit, so makers around the world could prototype their ideas using a Raspberry Pi. [This March](https://www.lobe.ai/blog/introducing-new-ways-to-use-your-model), we also launched a redesigned export page and the ability to select multiple camera sources, so data collection becomes even easier in your computer.

I am currently the lead designer for everything that has to do with Lobe at Microsoft, though Microsoft is a big company and priorities keep changing around.

## How did you get to be the Lead Designer? I bet it was an exciting journey. 
I started my journey in formal tech at [Hyper](https://www.hyperredink.no), a small digital agency in the heart of Oslo focused on building products for companies such as Intersport, Varner, and IKEA. A friend called Elvis spotted some of the work I was posting on GitHub and on Dribbble, and reached out to do an interview. 

After a couple of talks and a home exercise, I was moving my whole life to Norway to get started as an iOS engineer there. I spent two years in that new country, learning everything I could from the super talented people that worked there… Chris, Vadym, Markus, Johannes, Ola, Silje, Thuy, and many, many more. And though I started working as an engineer there, I quickly transitioned into interaction and visual design.

After my two-year stint in Norway, I flew back to Barcelona to start freelancing again, until Red Bull called because they needed help on their Red Bull TV and Red Bull.COM platforms.

<Image  caption="Red Bull TV" alt="Red Bull TV" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Mobile_3_8b3bae7fcd.jpeg" external/>

The mission at Red Bull was to inspire people to do more through the content that Red Bull itself produced, and it was an amazing job, because the mission aligned really well with my values of inspiring people through beautiful content.

<Image  caption="Red Bull Cards" alt="Red Bull Cards" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Cards_850719c07e.jpeg" external/>

At Red Bull, we came up with many concepts like live channels, the player as the control center for consumption and discovery, engaging cards that would appear contextually as you'd read certain stories, and more. My time with Esa, David, Philipp, Flo and the folks at Dayy was awesome, but after a couple of years working remotely for Red Bull, I wanted to be closer to tech again, so I started working at [Netlify](https://netlify.com) with Rafa on two projects that saw the light of day: Netlify Docs, and private, server side Netlify Analytics. After a while at Netlify, I moved on to work on Lobe, the project I've been working on for the past two and a half years of my life.

## I know you also host a podcast about how technology is changing the society around us, and it's exclusively in Catalan. What's the story behind it? 

I like to think of the concept of a fly on a wall in the middle of a conversation when I think about podcasts, and in fact, I spent many years listening to podcasts and learning on the internet, so when the opportunity came about, I couldn't let it go, Marc proposed to start a podcast, and we called it [Safareig](https://safareig.fm).

<Image  caption="Safareig Team" alt="Safareig Team" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Imatge_2_40914c3744.jpeg" external/>

Safareig is a very Catalan word that means both "laundry room" but also, the act of going to a place to gossip about ideas. This second definition comes from the days when people would go to a place to wash their clothes and they'd talk to others while they were cleaning them.

<Image  caption="Safareig Podcast" alt="Safareig Podcast" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Header_df324fb5a3.jpeg" external/>

All in all, Safareig is a podcast about technology, culture and our society- the Catalan society - as it evolves with the constant reinvention of technology. Born out of the COVID-19 pandemic, Safareig tries to answer the questions that people may have around up and coming concepts such as privacy, job seeking, mobility, design or machine learning, and historical events such as the Macintosh introduction, the iPhone event, or the organizational history of companies.

Safareig is in Catalan because we would be lying to ourselves otherwise. Catalan is a very minor language in the grand scheme of things, and technology, always going with the big first, is alienating a language that for many of us, is the first language that we used when we were born, and still use to this day. With this podcast, we try to bring two realities together, the reality of this minor, unprotected language and the reality of technology changing worlds and lives.

## It sounds like you have good time-management skills to do all these things. Do you have some routine by now? 
My partner's alarm goes off at around 7:15 AM, which means that my alarm is starting to warm up to tick at 7:50 AM. I wake up to a Catalan radio station that plays music, so I start the day with good vibes in my body. After I've woken up, I quickly lay down in the sofa for another 30 minutes again.

Every couple of days, I go on a 10 to 12km run in Collserola, the mountain that we have, limiting Barcelona on the west. I always feel fortunate to live close to nature, even if it's nature that's been prepared to be merged in the city. Barcelona doesn't have many green spots, but Collserola is one of the most beautiful ones I've seen.

After my run, I usually take a shower, have breakfast, record a podcast if it's Thursday, and then go to my home-office-space - I'll spend the majority of my day there. I usually start work around 11 or 12 PM and go on until 9 PM. Lobe is based pretty much entirely on the west coast, both in Seattle and San Francisco, so having as much overlap as possible is important to ensure a tight collaboration between designers, engineers, and other partners in the team.

<Image  caption="Ramon's Studio" alt="Ramon's Studio" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/DSC_02677_10742ca7fc.jpeg" external/>

Meetings are over at 9 or 10 PM, and my partner just gets home. We cook a nice dinner, talk about our day, watch the Barcelona game, or just enjoy a bit of silence together. At 11:30 PM it's reading time, and at 12 PM lights are off.

## How is remote work treating you? 
I've been working remotely for the past 5 years, first in my studio in Barcelona, then in a co-working space, and finally in my apartments later on. Remote has been hard, especially at a time when nobody was doing remote life, and though it became easier once we were all remote for COVID, the circumstances sucked to a point where motivation was really low for all.

Remote work is both a curse and a blessing, though, for one, you can work from anywhere - you just need an internet connection, your computer, and motivation to do the work - you don't need to commute, you are closer to your family, you can meet people all around the world, and you can focus a lot more most of the time. 

On the other hand, though, collaboration is harder, lack of motivation to achieve goals is present everywhere, work and life balance gets often broken, schedules get shifted, limited space makes it harder to pull work off, and inspiration is harder to find. 

I believe that many innovations are happening for remote work as we speak, but nobody has been able to crack the beauty of seeing one another every day, of collaborating together, of coming up with ideas in impromptu brainstorm sessions, or on learning about your team's work whenever you are just wandering around the office.

> I believe that many innovations are happening for remote work as we speak. 

As things open up again soon, I am hopeful remote work will stay, so many people that couldn't move countries, that had to help relatives around their houses, that had disabilities, or that simply needed or wanted to stay at home with their families, will still be able to work, but I, for one, I am excited to be able to go back to the office, at least every once in a while, to enjoy people's warmth again.

## With such a tight schedule, do you still have time for hobbies? 
Not all is work here, and it's been clear to me over the years, that, even though I had a rough period with them, sports have always been there when I needed them the most - not only as a consumer of sports, or as a creator of platforms for them at Red Bull - but also taking an active role in them. Three years ago, I started running regularly and that was one of the best decisions so far. In the past, I played football for 10 years and did rock climbing for 2. 

Beyond enjoying the competitiveness of sports, the team-building experience, and the greatness of athletes such as Leo Messi, LeBron James, Eliud Kipchoge, Aitana Bonmatí or Simone Biles, I enjoy nature, traveling around, looking at architecture, reading books, watching good movies, and listening to good music. As of late, I've been also building my record collection—re-discovering classics such as Bob Dylan and Supertramp, and mixing them with the great Catalans like Manel or Els Amics de les Arts.

<Image  caption="Gaudi architecture" alt="Gaudi architecture" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Gaudi_3_3523b8e631.jpeg" external/>

## Do you have some tips on how you educate yourself? 
Being self-thought is not easy, especially in a new area such as design - you are constantly questioning every decision you make, and you are constantly faking it, so it looks like you know more than what you actually know. Impostor syndrome is real, in the best, and in the worst weeks, and so, the little voice of the little guy in your head telling you "you are not good enough" is always present.

I am going to paraphrase Giannis Antetokounmpo here - a couple of weeks ago, he explained how he got past his ego, saying that when he focuses on the past, that's his ego talking, but when he focuses on the future, that's his pride. He finished by saying that he tries to focus on the moment, in the present. That's humility, he says, that's being humble. In a weird way, and without being as accomplished as Giannis, thinking about this framework makes sense, not in an achievement kind of way, but in an impostor syndrome kind of way. The truth of the matter is, everyone is trying to figure things out as they go, so read, learn, keep being curious, and be in the moment;  nobody will fire you, or will fault you for wanting to learn more and wanting to push yourself harder,  if anything, people will praise you for it.

> Read, learn, keep being curious, and be in the moment - nobody will fire you or fault you for wanting to learn more and wanting to push yourself harder; if anything, people will praise you for it.

As of myself, I'm always trying to look for opportunities to learn, new courses, new books, new talks, new people to meet, and I always try to stay curious. I recently finished my masters in Interaction Design as well, which helped me stay on track for a while, but as new things come on, as new opportunities come forward, that voice gets activated again, and you just need to push it aside, and try to push forward.

## Last but very important question. What inspires you in your work and life to grow and better yourself?
Keep growing, keep pushing, keep building and above all, keep learning. 
The knowledge you can potentially learn is and will always be greater than the time you'll ever be alive, but regardless, learning shouldn't stop when you stop going to school, or when you are outside of your job. Life is for the curious, and curiosity is always a skill that I try to nurture.

> Life is for the curious, and curiosity is always a skill that I try to nurture.

<Image alt="Inspiration" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/Island_4_636a7801bb.jpeg" external/>

As I did in my interview with Interface Lovers, I'd love to end with a quote attributed to Ira Glass:

"Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you got to know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It's going to take a while. It's normal to take a while. You've just got to fight your way through."


Ramon Gilabert is the Lead Designer at Lobe for Microsoft. His background may be a bit non-traditional, but buying a Mac, installing Photoshop, Sketch, TacoHTML, and Xcode changed his life forever one day. Ever since, he's been designing for companies like Red Bull, Intersport, IKEA, and Domino's. We asked him about his journey and his advice for other designers to grow and do their best work. 

How to grow as a designer and always be curious with Ramon Gilabert from Microsoft

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The Grit - Ramon Gilabert, Lead Designer at Lobe for Microsoft

## Hi Christina. Thanks for taking the time. To break the ice, as a content designer, what do you enjoy doing in your free time?

Hello! Thanks for having me. These days with a toddler, my free time is pretty limited, but I always manage to make time to play word games on my phone. I’m obsessed! Scrabble is one of my favorites, but there are many others like Boggle and Bananagrams. I also enjoy crossword puzzles. Hit me up on Boggle or Words With Friends (@hellochristina). I’m always looking for people to play with.

## Very cool. Can you introduce yourself a bit and tell us what makes you busy these days?

I work at Facebook with the newly minted title of Content Designer (formerly Content Strategist). More on that later. I’m a San Francisco Bay Area native. Growing up, my parents didn’t pressure me to get top grades or pursue a career in medicine or computers, even though they themselves worked in those fields. I felt like I had a lot of leeway in whatever path I chose. This was a huge relief since I was absolutely terrible at science and math. The one thing I had was a love of reading and writing, which was bolstered by a kind and encouraging English teacher I had in high school.

After graduating college with an English degree, I worked various temp jobs while looking for something permanent and happened to get placed at a small advertising agency doing administrative tasks. I loved the energy of the place, particularly the creative department where the art directors, designers, and copywriters were gathered. The owner’s 74-year-old mother worked in the proofreading department. After learning that I was looking for a job, she talked with her son, who then hired me as a proofreader. Over time, I was given a few copywriting projects to work on by the creative director, and that’s where my career started. I’m forever grateful for the people in my life who have taken a chance on me, and that’s why I try to pay it back by helping others where I can, whether it’s by making connections, giving them feedback on their portfolio or offering career guidance for people interested in working in content design.

Fast forward a few jobs, and I eventually made the switch to Product Content Design. In some ways, it’s flexing the same muscles, and in many other ways, it’s building many new skills that, to this day, I feel I’m still learning and will continue to do so.

## Tell us about what you do at Facebook.

Content designers at Facebook are embedded in product teams and work on things like naming, interface writing, information architecture, and planning content to scale across the massive system that is Facebook. I spent a couple of years working on the Profile team, and for the last few years have been on a team that focuses on people in emerging markets. Most teams at Facebook take a global approach to build products, and my team is unique in that we focus on addressing barriers that certain populations face in using Facebook.

> Content designers at Facebook are embedded on product teams and work on things like naming, interface writing, information architecture, and planning content to scale across the massive system that is Facebook.

This minority approach is actually a majority stake for Facebook. More users are in emerging markets than in developing countries. This means many people either use Facebook in a language other than English or use Facebook in English but may have varying comprehension levels. I was intrigued with the challenge of how to scale the English language so it’s understood by every type of user - from a fluent American to someone who may barely be able to make out a few words here and there. For example, in India, nearly everyone is using Facebook in English, but the level of comprehension varies wildly in the country.

> For example, in India, nearly everyone is using Facebook in English, but the level of comprehension varies wildly in the country.

One of my favorite examples of how English isn’t a one-size-fits-all is the phrase “What’s on your mind?” It’s one of the first things you see when you open Facebook, prompting you to create a post. The data showed that posting was low in India, and after digging into why this could be, we learned that people in India didn’t understand what the phrase meant and didn’t realize what they were supposed to do. After rounds of testing different content dimensions, the winning variant was “Write something here.” Being direct and instructional clarified the action we wanted people to take as well as where to take it. This is now what everyone in India sees.

<Image  caption="How Facebook localizes the 'Create Post' component" alt="Creating a post in Facebook" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/post_cccc0f56f8.png" external/>

## The Content Design team at Facebook recently changed its name from Content Strategy. What are your thoughts on that?

My personal opinion is that the Content Strategist title has been going through somewhat of an identity crisis over the years. The title has grown to mean a lot of different roles and responsibilities. The word “strategist” is so broad and can be applied to many content practices. I love that we’re better defining our function and aligning it with our closest counterpart, product design. We design experiences for people using words. We partner with product designers on how best to visualize these experiences in a way that is clear and straightforward.

> We design experiences for people using words.

## You have a journalism degree. What pushed you toward copywriting and eventually content design?

I went to graduate school with no idea of what I wanted to do after. I just felt that journalism was a nice base to work off to pursue some kind of career in writing. My motivations for grad school are a little murky as I was drawn to the opportunity to live in London. It turned out to be an unforgettable year, both academically and personally. When I came back to California, I ended up back in the same industry I was in before I left advertising. I worked as a copywriter for companies like Gap and Williams-Sonoma before landing at Hotwire, a travel company owned by Expedia. It was there that I first heard about the UX practice and UX writing. By then, I was feeling burnt out with trying to write catchy headlines and was intrigued with the challenge of solving people and business problems. I had a few roles at Hotwire and the last one was on a product team, helping to set up a new CMS. While it wasn’t UX work, it was a step in the right direction.

## What are the main differences in responsibilities and tasks of a Copywriter vs. a Content Designer?

The goals and the ways the roles function are the primary differences. As a Copywriter, you’re writing with the intent of getting people to want to buy something. You tend to use subjective adjectives and can be abstract, playful and clever in communicating the benefits of the product. You’re usually working off of a brief, with many decisions already made for you. Communication with the client or stakeholder is more disconnected than a content designer, who’s usually embedded on a product team.

> As a copywriter, you’re usually working off of a brief, with many decisions already made for you.

As a Content Designer, you usually have a stake in deciding what products to build and how they will be built. You define frameworks to guide the content direction as part of a system, accounting for scalability in size and locales. Your words are simple and straightforward with the goal of getting the user through a flow with as little friction as possible. In both roles, you consider the audience, choose your words wisely and follow established voice and tone guidelines.

> As a Content Designer, you usually have a stake in deciding what products to build and how they will be built.

## As a Content Strategist at Facebook, you are talking to a global audience, but how do you approach the issue of localization?

Content designers at Facebook create content in English first, and the content is then translated into all of the languages we support. While we work at scale, we’re thoughtful about localization and ensuring that the content not only translates well but meets the needs of each locale. We make sure that terminology is well-defined and that translations carry the same tone as was intended in English. Our voice is simple, straightforward, and human, so we can be sure we always sound like Facebook, no matter the language. Content Designers work closely with the localization team in all phases of our work.

> While we work at scale, we’re thoughtful about localization and ensuring that the content not only translates well but meets the needs of each locale.

<Image  caption="Creating a Story with the Facebook app. Source: facebookblueprint.com" alt="Creating a Story with the Facebook app" src="https://cdn.marketing.avocode.com/pupushify-staging/facebook_story_1056704418.gif" width="35%" external/>

## When somebody in the room says “people don’t read”, how do you react?

I hear this phrase in meetings from time to time, and it’s like nails on a chalkboard. On the one hand, I know what people mean to say, that yes, not everyone reads every word on a screen or wants to parse through paragraphs of text. People tend to scan. But it can come across as dismissive and inconsiderate of the needs of our users. Of course, people read. If an app had no text and was full of empty boxes, how would people know what to do? Every word matters. And every word should be there for a reason. Content Designers have run countless A/B test results that show changing the content - whether it’s the tone, value proposition, or even the verb choice - can make or break an experience.

> Of course, people read. If an app had no text and was full of empty boxes, how would people know what to do? Every word matters. And every word should be there for a reason.

## The chicken or the egg conundrum. What comes first - content or design?

I’d say it depends on the situation. A content- vs. a design-led initiative seems self-explanatory but when it’s not as clear cut, I would say either could come first. The Content Designer may have more on their plate and is unable to start a project as early as the product designer, and vice versa. I don’t think it matters so much as the importance of collaboration and early sharing of work between the two roles.

## What is your best practice regarding the collaboration between content and design?

Design and content work very closely at Facebook. Oftentimes, we’re literally sitting next to each other (when we were actually in the office). If the partnership is working at its best, we are each other’s right-hand person. We make decisions together. Run ideas by each other. Create principles and frameworks. We run brainstorms together and use data to inform what we should work on. We gain alignment and make sure our work tells a cohesive story before presenting it to the team.

## What problems are you facing when it comes to the collaboration between design and content?

One of the biggest challenges I’ve faced is being outnumbered by the number of product designers I support. When a Product Designer is able to dedicate 100% of their time to one product or pillar, they’re able to work at a deeper level, and produce work that shows depth and breadth. This makes it easier to build subject matter expertise and be seen as a key player. A Content Designer can only be so effective when they’re splitting their time between two, three or more workstreams.

On a more tactical level, collaboration in asynchronous design tools like Sketch is a challenge for content designers. We either have to rely on the Product Designer to make content updates, or we have to figure out some type of process of taking turns updating the Sketch file. Figma solves this big problem, and I’m so glad that teams are moving in this direction.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?**

You can find me on [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/hellochristinawu/). If you like word games, find me @hellochristina on Boggle or Words With Friends.

**Bonus Question: What’s your favorite way to eat avocado?**

Can I start with my least favorite way to eat avocado? I love avocado, and I love sushi, but the two do not go together! I’m a sushi purist and feel it’s wrong to include avocado in a roll. Now my favorite way to eat avocado, and this is going to make me sound so Californian, is avocado toast. Toasted sliced sourdough with avocado, then sliced tomato and topped with a fried egg. Drizzle a little salt and pepper. Perfection.

Christina Wu leads the Content Design Team at Facebook. She is an expert at how to design experiences for a global audience using words, clearly visualize them, and remove friction. Now she reveals her approach to effectively pairing content and design for The Grit by Avocode.

On how to effectively pair content and design with Christina Wu from Facebook

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The Grit - Christina Wu, Content Design Manager at Facebook 

## Hi Ilona. Thanks for taking the time. Let's start with who you are and what you do?

Happy to be here! I’m Ilona and I head up the Content Team at AppSumo. Truth to be told, I’ve been a bit of a word nerd for as long as I can remember. This probably has to do with the fact that English is my second language (Russian is my first), so I’ve been a little bit obsessed with getting it right.

I grew up in New York, found my love for tech and startups in Seattle, and decided that there is such a thing as too much rain so I packed a U-Haul and drove to Austin, sight unseen. In what can only be described as kismet, AppSumo was the first job I applied to when I arrived. I was instantly drawn in by the punchy, irreverent copy in the job description and knew it was the place for me.

In my current role as Head of Content, I oversee our copy, design, video, email, and content marketing teams. If you’re looking at something on our site, chances are, the incredible people I work with had a hand in it.

## Tell us a bit about what AppSumo does and what is the (success) story behind it?
[AppSumo](https://appsumo.com) gives everyday entrepreneurs the tools they need to grow their business. That means deals on client-management software, social media tools, design apps — you name it. There shouldn’t be a barrier to entry when it comes to starting your side hustle (or main hustle, for that matter!) so really, our audience is anyone looking to start, grow, or streamline their business.

Here’s our backstory: Once upon a time in 2010, Noah Kagan had the idea to bundle and discount software products that he, himself, wanted to use. Turns out, a lot of people use software and not a lot of people want to pay monthly subscriptions for it. We partner with startups and match our audience of digitally savvy folks with insanely discounted access to cutting edge tools. In exchange, our audience offers founders really valuable user feedback, social proof, and capital to flesh out their roadmap or build their team.

<Image src="73/1.png" caption="" />

## You are an expert on outreach and outbound marketing. How do you keep your messaging natural, engaging, and not spammy?

Great question! I think the key is letting your personality shine through. Everyone has received an email that they know is just a mail-merge tag of their name and website. Frankly, those are easy to ignore. But when you take time to really understand who you’re speaking to, what their pain point is, and how you can fix it for them — that’s the kind of message you want to respond to.

Thankfully, AppSumo has always had a really distinct and funny voice. So when I took over our copy, I definitely had big shoes to fill, but I was also able to sound like me. The advice that I received was to write copy like I was speaking to a friend, and to make the conversation about them — not whatever I was selling. For instance, you could say ‘this software is intended for collaboration’ or you could say ‘never deal with miscommunication again.’ One of these focuses on the feature — the other focuses on the person and the problem you’re solving for them.

> The advice that I received was to write copy like I was speaking to a friend, and to make the conversation about them — not whatever I was selling.

Emails sound spammy when they’re over-optimized. Instead of trying to fit in as many CTA buttons as you can, or using the word FREE in capital letters — focus on relating to your audience and solving a problem for them.

> Instead of trying to fit in as many CTA buttons as you can, or using the word FREE in capital letters — focus on relating to your audience and solving a problem for them.

## How do you work with target audiences, segmenting, and buyer personas?

There are a few ways to answer this question! At AppSumo, I think of our target audience in terms of their stage along the entrepreneurial journey: you have your wantrepreneurs (people that view starting their own business as aspirational), your side-hustlers, your full-timers, and your I’m-growing-my-own-business-and-hiring-ers (we should probably come up with a better name for them, huh?). These stages come to play when we’re thinking of how to effectively message to people, and what kind of content we want them to resonate with.

We also segment customers based on their stage in the purchaser funnel: casual buyers, super buyers, referrers, and affiliates. Identifying levers to get a customer from one bucket into the next increases our lifetime with that customer, and helps get new customers through the door. For example, celebrating milestones (e.g. a first purchase) with an incentive to repeat that action (say, offering a discount) positively reinforces the behavior amongst your audience.

When it comes to email, you should also segment based on activity. Having an active segment and inactive segment allows you to know who to send to more frequently, who you need to re-engage, and how to measure the overall health of your list. I use the size of the active segment as a pulse-check on how the rest of the list is doing, and how effective our retention tactics are.

## Content is not just words, but also design. How do you make sure the marriage between the two works in your content strategy?

Design is an incredibly powerful and important part of the content umbrella, namely because:

- 1. people learn and process information differently,
- 2. visual media compels emotion.

I’ll use the AppSumo content strategy as an example. For a while, our design was cartoony. Our brand is informal and jokey — not to mention, software tends to be abstract (there are only so many ways you can showcase spreadsheets). But as we started to delve deeper into the AppSumo brand promises and values, we realized that at its core, our ethos was about **serving and honoring the entrepreneur**. Our cartoon-like images did not adequately capture the feelings we wanted to evoke. This led to our decision to tell more customer stories and partner case studies. With that comes a stronger emphasis on human-centric imagery and design.

<Image src="73/2.png" caption="" />

## As a content strategist, you need to worry not just about the textual message, but also how it looks. How does your content department work with the design team?

We’re blessed to work with some of the best designers in the game, who can visually translate even the most complex concepts. That said, designers aren’t mind-readers, so it’s important to have clear examples of what we’re looking for. Recently, we got into the habit of creating mood-boards via Pinterest and [Really Good Emails](https://reallygoodemails.com/) to draw inspiration and be able to accurately communicate what we want.

<Image src="73/3.png" caption="Really Good Emails’ Collection feature has been a game-changer when it comes to categorizing and sharing inspiration for new campaigns and designs!" />

This might sound really basic, but one thing we’ve only recently started doing is creating a strong visual style guide, both for internal and external use. Keeping an up-to-date repository of our colors, logos, fonts, etc. has allowed us to become more streamlined and consistent. And this goes without saying but as a team grows, documentation is everything!

<Image src="73/4.png" caption="AppSumo design system." />

At AppSumo, the design team is an integral part of the content team — and we work closely on just about every project. Jeir, our amazing Creative Director, sets the tone and direction for a campaign. For example, we’re cooking up something. 🔥

for our Black Friday event this year. Jeir and I met to discuss potential themes and landed on a visual identity we were excited about. From there, his team works with the video, ads, and affiliate teams to create assets that match for each channel. Our copy team then brings it over the finish line with choice words that match the look we’re going for.

<Image src="73/5.png?v1" caption="AppSumo Black Friday campaign last year (2019) — a 1990’s throwback theme, reinforced with copy" />

The start-off point is important here: for a campaign like Black Friday, we led with design. Other campaigns, like say, a Back-to-School Giveaway, start with an idea or a feeling expressed by copy. Then it’s the design team’s job to translate that into a visual. Collaboration is key here. Having a team that feeds on each other’s energy and wants to supplement and improve what’s already there is the missing ingredient between good and great.

## Many people nowadays think that humanity has stopped reading and that the average attention span is shortening. What do you think? Do you think people don’t read online?

People definitely don’t read as much as you want them to, but I also don’t think the situation is as dire as it seems. We actually polled our audience about this last year and the results were about what you’d expect (picture on the left). While there were many "skimmers", we did have some customers tell us that the copy is an integral part of the experience for them (picture on the right).

<Image src="73/6.png?v1" caption="" />

> People definitely don’t read as much as you want them to, but I also don’t think the situation is as dire as it seems.

But we did have some customers tell us that the copy is an integral part of the experience for them:

Words definitely matter — that’s why newsletters like Morning Brew have seen a resurgence recently! Ultimately, there are many different kinds of people, all with their own preferences and proclivities. So my answer is: **repurpose the same kind of content in every medium so each visitor can choose their own adventure**. We have fun, engaging copy if you care to read it; a high-energy video if you prefer to watch; and screenshots and GIFs sprinkled throughout the page for those that need to visualize. Instead of lamenting that audiences have shorter attention spans, ask yourself: How do I get a piece of that attention pie?

> Repurpose the same kind of content in every medium so each visitor can choose their own adventure.

## I’m sure that at AppSumo, you are often talking to various audiences. What’s your take on localisation?

Lucky for us, entrepreneurship exists worldwide. Add the secondary layer that we sell software tools to grow online businesses, and our target market is the entire world. (No big deal, right?)

That being said, we are definitely experimenting with localization. For example, we created a task force to translate one of our deal pages into Spanish — including copy, video, and a webinar. We then ran ads exclusively to a Spanish-speaking audience. Our main learning from this experience is that it is not easy to do!

There are tools that can help, however! We recently featured [Alugha](https://alugha.com/) on AppSumo, which allows you to translate video content into the language of your viewer.

I would recommend using insights from tools like this to better understand who your audience is, and what opportunities are your biggest levers before making massive time/resource investments.

## You are very passionate about e-mail marketing. To make sure you send the most compelling e-mails with good frequency and timing, you need to have some sort of framework or calendar. What do you use?

You’re so right, I AM very passionate about e-mail marketing! This is a tough question to answer because it really depends on who your audience is, what product you’re marketing to them, and how frequently you’ve been sending emails in the past. We started by sending two emails per week. Then, as our deal calendar grew, we experimented by slowly adding more emails to the week and monitoring how our audience responded to them. Now, we send closer to five emails per week — many of them digest-style featuring multiple tools in one.

I don’t think there’s a magic cadence, but I would keep this framework in mind:

1. Provide value every time by being entertaining, giving something away for free, or solving a problem

2. Don’t send an email just to send an email (see point #1)

3. Monitor how your audience is reacting to what you’re sending them. A/B test length, copy, subject lines, etc. Keep your lists smaller but more engaged. Know your key metrics, like unsubscribe rate, and course correct when your leading indicators tell you to.

## What’s your take on simply textual vs visual templates? Which works best and when?

I love a plain-text template! Our Chief Sumo, Noah Kagan, sends mainly text-based emails for his [YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/okdork?sub_confirmation=1) and they have great engagement!

<Image src="73/7.png?v1" caption="" />

Plain text emails make more sense when they’re coming from a person, rather than a company. Visual emails really let your brand shine!

I also think that if your product is visual, then that should be conveyed in your emails. An important call-out for visual emails is accessibility. Make sure that you leverage alt-text where your images are in the event that someone is visually impaired and leans on apps to translate your messages, or even if someone has the HTML turned off on their ESP. The last thing you want to do is send an email that’s basically null because you didn’t consider accessibility!

## How do you test the quality of design and code in your emails and generally your content strategy?

When I first started at AppSumo, I introduced a completely new email layout. In order to effectively do this, I rolled it out in stages to make sure that I didn’t completely confuse and alienate our audience. That’s why I started with A/B testing to our newest customers, and when I saw that my variation was equal to or better, I moved on to the rest of the list.

For example here is the progress of one of our emails:

1. Added our logo and a nav bar so it’s clear that we are the brand behind the email;
2. Added a live timer to capitalize on the FOMO component of the time sensitive deal;
3. Shortened up our copy considerably with more focus on a call-to-action

<Row col="2"><Image src="73/8.png?v1" caption="AppSumo email template in 2017" /><Image src="73/9.png?v1" caption="AppSumo email template today (2020)" /></Row>

## Social media apps. We all use them. They steal our time and we can’t help it. As a content strategist, which are the best social media channels to deliver your message?

So full disclosure: I’m terrible at Instagram—at least when it comes to my personal page. No one’s made me a brand ambassador yet (holler at your girl, @Madewell). But when it comes to content strategy, I think IG is still king for visual brands.

For a company like ours, YouTube is probably the channel I have the most faith in. Its algorithm is scary-good, and it’s free to host! We’ve seen a lot of success when we started taking it seriously — more so than on any other platform. (If you want to give our channel a follow, you can [find us here.](https://youtube.com/appsumo?sub_confirmation=1))

I also wouldn’t underestimate the value of a Facebook group — doing the grunt work upfront to find relevant groups that have high engagement can seriously pay off! I would recommend doing your research and putting time into crafting a post ([here’s](https://growgetters.substack.com/p/posting-to-facebook-groups-100s-of) how I recommend you do that).

## Every successful design or tech driven company ends up with building a sales team. What’s your take on cold e-mailing and generally outbound marketing? How can you do it to break the ice, build relationships instead of bothering people?

Ok, so here’s the thing: no one likes receiving emails from a robot. And while I’m sure a lot of people will tell you it’s a numbers game, I say it’s always better to start with your warmest leads (aka your personal and secondary network) and write real messages, even if it takes longer. I would also definitely recommend my friends over at [lemlist](https://www.lemlist.com/), whose software is killing the personalized outreach game.

Here are some fast and loose tips for outreach:

1. Act like you know the person! Say something like, "I see you’re based in Austin! I love the al pastor tacos at Veracruz!" (Related side note: Make sure you don’t spell someone’s name wrong! This happens to me all the time and it’s an instant dealbreaker.)
2. Don’t say generic things like: "I hope this email finds you well during these unprecedented times." (And if you do, make a joke acknowledging how generic that is.)
3. Follow up! I often respond to the second or third email. But please, don’t make your follow-ups sound like a lyric from Eminem’s “Stan.” Instead, give people a kind way out. Say "Hey I’m a big fan and I’d love to collaborate with you - but no pressure." The relationship shouldn’t feel contingent on them taking your preferred action. Who knows? Maybe there will be a door open in the future if isn’t right now.

If this topic really gets you going (I respect that, you weirdo), I’d also recommend checking out this [Outreach 101 blog series](https://blog.appsumo.com/defining-your-buyer-persona/) we put together!

## Can you share your favorite resources?

- [https://reallygoodemails.com](https://reallygoodemails.com/)&nbsp;-&nbsp;The best place to find inspo for an email campaign! They just came out with an SMS version of this and it’s also awesome. Plus, their emails are…really good.
- [https://www.figma.com/community](https://www.figma.com/community)&nbsp;-&nbsp;I’ve been loving Figma as a collaborator and am really impressed with the community posts!
- [https://open.spotify.com/playlist](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6MURYpgRMJbdnmXUJQ4aJ3?si=4GNtyOKoSgCdl3FOMrOzFA)&nbsp;(Yes, I made this playlist. No, I’m not embarrassed. [#FallOutBoy4Ever](https://paper.dropbox.com/?q=%23FallOutBoy4Ever))
- [https://www.nytimes.com/crossword](https://www.nytimes.com/crossword)&nbsp;-&nbsp;Best yearly subscription money can buy! Helps with writers block, word association, and cultural references.

## What’s your greatest worry when it comes to the content strategy as a profession in 2020?

I’m always concerned with balancing SEO-led content with strong, community-driven stories. Ultimately, I think you need both: a way for new people to find you, and high-quality content to keep them engaged and subscribed. Marketing of any kind is always easier when you’re selling a good product, so creating read/watch/shareworthy content will always be priority #1.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

Hit me up on [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilona-abramova/)! I’ll be quizzing you on your outreach skills. 😂

---

## Bonus Question: What's your favorite way to eat avocado?

On toasted sourdough, with EVOO and Za’atar.



Ilona Abramova leads the Content Team at AppSumo. After years working in community management, copywriting and content strategy, she has learned many tricks on outbound messaging, a/b testing, and UX writing in the design process. Now she reveals them for The Grit by Avocode.

 Why words matter not just in marketing but also in design with Ilona Abramova, Head of Content at AppSumo

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The Grit - Ilona Abramova, Head of Content at AppSumo | Avocode Blog

Sara Kalinoski is a Product Design Lead with over 12 years experience from both agencies and in-house. After having crafted brand and product experiences for Apple, Audi, Visa, Medtronic, Contentful, Zalando, and most recently, Delivery Hero, she now shares her life story with Avocode for The Grit.

On continuous learning and the importance of mentorship with Sara Kalinoski from Delivery Hero

The Grit - Sara Kalinoski, Product Design Manager at Delivery Hero

## Hi Lubos. Let’s start with who you are and what you do?

Hey! I’m Luboš, a product designer based in Prague, Czech Republic. In the past 10 years, I’ve worked on the forefront of design with many influential global brands, including Netgear, UnitedHealthcare, and L’Oréal. When I am not designing, I am trying to educate the next generation of designers on my Instagram or mentorship sessions.

Currently, I’m leading one of the design teams at Toptal. In fact, I was the very first designer at the company working there for more than 7 years. I helped to establish key user interface frameworks, hired key design team members, and established the foundation for future product and brand development.

> In fact, I was the very first designer at Toptal, working there for more than 7 years.

## Tell me about how you got started and what led you into design?

In high school, I studied electrotechnical engineering, which was focused on math, physics, technical drawing, and design of electric circuits. I designed and successfully launched my own functional sound amplifier during my last year in high school. After high school, I went to the Czech Technical University to become an engineer.

However, at that time, I have discovered Photoshop (yes, Photoshop was used for interface design at the time) and my love for design and solving complex problems. I decided to take a leap of faith and quit the university to become a user interface designer.

At that time, my skills weren’t good enough, I locked myself at my room for almost one year, and I practiced on my own (free) imaginary projects, everything from web design to complex user interfaces. After one year, I started sharing my work on Dribbble, and I got a job offer from Silicon Valley-based startup; that’s how my long journey started. It was almost ten years ago.

> My skills weren’t good enough, I locked myself at my room for almost one year, and I practiced on my own (free) imaginary projects, everything from web design to complex user interfaces.

<Image src="71/1.png" caption="Moneto – Mobile Banking Application [In Development]" />

<Image src="71/2.png" caption="Moneto – Mobile Banking Brand Guidelines" />

## What did you do before you joining Toptal?

Before Toptal, I was working with digital agencies and also freelancing, mostly with the US-based clients, since the quality and overall startup culture (at that time) was way more developed over there. I touched everything from the user interface, branding to motion.

It was definitely a valuable part of my career since it gave me a strategic oversight of different design disciplines. That was later very valuable at Toptal.

<Image src="71/3.png" caption="Ntgr – Gaming Dashboard Interface" />

<Image src="71/4.png" caption="Ntgr – Gaming Dashboard Interface Guidelines" />

## You’re leading the Design team at Toptal right now. Can you briefly describe what Toptal is about and how your design team operates?

Sure. Toptal is an exclusive network of top freelance software developers, designers, finance experts, product managers, and project managers in the world.

I’m at Toptal for more than 7 years, so I have seen and helped the company to grow from 10 ppl to 650 ppl. My hiring process was straightforward, I got an email and skype call from the CEO, and I got hired almost immediately after that. That’s how my journey started.

The entire company is remote. Toptal is the world's largest fully distributed company. We do not have any office; our entire team is fully remote from day one. We got people from 126 countries, which is pretty impressive in my opinion.

At this scale, our operation is fully automated and driven by our [playbook](https://www.toptal.com/remote-work-playbook) and own tools developed specifically for us. Like most people, we use Zoom for all our meetings, and we always follow these rules to stay as productive as possible.

- Be flexible with time zones
- Have an agenda
- Keep your camera on
- Mute notifications
- Cancel or end early if needed
- Rate your meetings

We also use asynchronous work to our advantage. With asynchronous communication, a team member provides information, and the recipient sees and responds in their own time. Working this way helps maximize productivity when team members are located in very different timezones. In order to work asynchronously, we need to use the right set of tools. The most important ones are listed below.

- Zoom, Slack (Communication)
- Figma & Sketch (Design)
- Abstract (Version Control)
- Miro (Brainstorming)
- Google G Suite (Storage and Collaboration)
- Trello and Asana (Tasks)
- Confluence (Wiki)

## Tell us more about your role. What are your key responsibilities?

My focus changed over the years, based on the company's needs. In the beginning, my focus as the only designer was everything design-related, from the user interfaces to the website experience. However, my biggest focus was the design of the Platform UI (Platform is a proprietary piece of technology created to run all operations.).

After three years as the only designer, I started hiring, leading, and mentoring my own design team (UI/UX Designers, Illustrators). I end up hiring 7+ people to kickstart the Design Team at Toptal. A huge majority of them are nowadays at leading positions.

These days, when the Design Team and the entire organization are much bigger, we split into multiple design teams and lead one of the teams. My day to day work is focused on specific design problems, where I work with cross-functional teams to solve them. I am also involved in project planning, roadmaps, brainstormings with other functions, or hiring.

## As a Design Lead, how do you approach your designers' team to work with front-end developers successfully?

For me, it is communication and following the best practices. We always like to review our designs with developers early on, often there is a developer paired with the designer so they can collaborate and discuss the potential design challenges even in the lo-fi phase of the design. They can brainstorm potential solutions together even before showing the designs to the stakeholder. This more collaborative process allows us to avoid scope creeps and delays in the product releases. The cadence of these sync ups between developer and designer is determined after the official kickoff call, and it highly depends on the complexity of the project. However, the communication line between designers and developers needs to be always open with regular check-ins on progress.
Since we use Sketch for product design and our entire design system is hosted there, we also use the Abstract for version control and handoff. It currently suits best our workflow the best. However, that can change in the future as we try to stay flexible. We also track every single issue and task on Jira, and we document everything in the Confluence, which is used as our internal wiki. Developers are using Jira, LucidChart, and RetroBoard.

<Image src="71/5.png" caption="" />

## You’re very active on Instagram. How relevant, in your opinion, is self-promotion for designers?

In my opinion, it is more and more important these days. You are essentially building your digital brand, and followers are giving you more credibility. I’m not saying it is right; however, it is how it works. Social media helps you to get more points during the hiring process.

Along with that, social media or the audience, in general, is always valuable. Imagine you release a new product, or you need to get hired. In the past, my audience played a major role in the releases of my [digital products](https://ioswireframingkit.com/). They not only purchased my tools, but they also promoted it on their own social media, which helped me to generate even more sales. Obviously, this only applies if you create something which our audience cares about.

> Imagine you release a new product, or you need to get hired. In the past, my audience played a major role in the releases of my digital products.

## Why did you decide to go with Instagram?

Good question. I’m on Instagram from the beginning when everyone was posting selfies and photos of their food (try to scroll down my feed). However, over time, I found out that Instagram is a good way how you can engage with the audience and tell the stories. Plus, the audience over there is huge, not only designers but also potential clients. However, for the clients, it is usually working as validation, they will more likely not hire you directly on Instagram, but they are going to review your profile to see if you are a legitimate designer and if they can work with you. I highly encourage everyone to curate their social media since prospective clients and going to google their name and Instagram or Twitter will be the first thing that will popup.
Technically I am everywhere from Dribbble, Twitter to Youtube. But I do not post that often to these platforms. I plan to put more effort into Dribbble and Youtube later this year.

## Having in-depth knowledge of your Instagram target audience is an important part of every successful social media strategy. How do you find your target audience, and what are your targeting tactics to reach them?

Totally, it’s is the key. However, Instagram analytics tools are very limited. But my posts are always targeting designers (from juniors to seniors), I do not target clients. If you create a profile with valuable content, high-quality visual people are going to find you. For example, I was interviewed on 180k+ design [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN7dywl5wDxTu1RM3eJ_h9Q) channel, specifically due to my Instagram. Ran Segall, who is running the show, found me on Instagram. We started to chat in the DM and agreed on a short interview. This helped me to build an even bigger audience, plus I have a nice social proof for my portfolio.

I always try to follow and stay in touch with accounts with a similar niche and similar size. I engage with their posts, chat with them in the dm, or share their stories. Then they do the same for me, which allows me to reach their audience and eventually grow my account.

## How do you create content that grabs the attention of your audience and entices them to engage?

I always ask myself if this is a topic, I would like to read about and then create a post about it. It is that simple there is no magic behind that. However not every single post is successful, it is always hard to predict since the Instagram algorithm is unpredictable.

> I always ask myself if this is a topic, I would like to read about and then create a post about it. It is that simple there is no magic behind that.

My goal is to help designers to elevate their design skills or learn something new in a very short period of time. Instagram carousels are perfect for that since you need to focus only on the core of the problem and remove everything else. Below are a few examples of very successful ones:

- [7 Tips On Colors in Interface Design](https://www.instagram.com/p/BuBhhSPBEjl/)
- [7 Tips How To Get Started In Interface Design](https://www.instagram.com/p/Bu6MPJhhYM2/)
- [8 Great UI/UX Design Tips & Tricks](https://www.instagram.com/p/CAXpDxzFpAi/)
- [15 Best (Free) Google Fonts by the Numbers](https://www.instagram.com/p/B_UscJRFhrX/)

<Image src="71/6.png" caption="Example of my popular Instagram posts" />

## Repurposing content is a great way to bring back old ideas and make them fresh and new. How do you repurpose your Instagram content to be more consistent across all of your social media platforms?

I don’t do that often (I should I know). I have flexible design templates for almost everything (From Instagram to Twitter) these are usually used for some time until the next version is created.

## How long does it take to create quality social media content for you?

It takes anything between 1-4 hrs per post, but it depends if it’s a carousel or photo since each of them requires a different approach. For me, the most time consuming are the photos, since I have developed a very “sterile” style of the photos which require a lot of preparation and clean up before every photo shoot. I like to say that my table is popular on Instagram not me haha. I usually try to post twice a week, which allows me to focus on quality.

## Where do you get inspired?

I got two types of inspiration digital and offline one. For digital, it is usually [Dribbble](https://dribbble.com/), [Abduzeedo](https://abduzeedo.com/), [Awwwards](https://www.awwwards.com/websites/), or [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/projektmono/). I like to observe things there, collect mood boards inside the design tool, and then craft designs based on the inspiration and then iterate.

For the offline one, people around me such as my family, friends or colleagues. Then traveling to different countries or hiking. This type of inspiration is more like an influence that is not immediate and appears only after some time. For example, you see a certain pattern on the building at Lisbon, Portugal, and 5 months later, you use it in one of your projects.

## Give our audience 5 actionable tips if they think of kicking-off their Instagram game.

1. Share stuff you are passionate about
2. Set up a strict sharing schedule
3. Do not worry about every single detail, just post
4. Engage with your loyal audience (dm’s, comments, etc)
5. Instagram is not everything, do not forget about your own life

## Did you have any good mentors that helped you shape your design career?

I personally didn’t have any sort of mentor, I always have been learning by trial and error which was definitely harder and longer, however, it helped me to form my own process and perspectives without being a replica of someone.

I would give one advice to starting designers. Do not wait for the perfect moment and do not worry that others know more than you, take action. If you do not have a portfolio create your own practice projects (find a problem and solve it). If you do not know how to do something google that or read a book about it. Make it happen.

## Where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

You can follow me on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lubosvolkov), [Dribbble](https://dribbble.com/OtherPlanet), [Twitter](https://twitter.com/0therPlanet), or [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/lubosvolkov/).

## Bonus Question: Avocado vs. Guacamole?

Avocado!

Currently, I’m leading one of the design teams at Toptal. In fact, I was the very first designer at the company working there for more than 7 years. I helped to establish key user interface frameworks, hired key design team members, and established the foundation for future product and brand development.


 Lubos Volkov has founded the Design Team at Toptal, followed by more than 60,000 designers on Instagram. He has worked at the forefront of design with brands like Netgear, UnitedHealthcare, and L’Oréal. Now he reveals his career path story for Avocode.

How Lubos Volkov founded the Design Team at Toptal and built a 60+K Instagram following

The Grit - Lubos Volkov, Lead Designer at Toptal | Avocode Blog

Rania Svoronou is an awarded Design Director at IBM iX based in New York. She’s a global keynote/TEDx speaker, guest lecturer, industry mentor at some of the world’s best universities, and has been invited to judge and mentor across the world. Now she reveals her story for Avocode.

Rania Svoronou, Design Director at IBM iX on design mentorship, resilience, and finding your voice as a creative.

The Grit -  Rania Svoronou, Design Director at IBM iX | Avocode Blog


## Hi Gabriel. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

Hi, thanks for having me! “Where are you from?” is one of the hardest questions for me to answer. I've lived in 4 countries, 3 continents, and no less than 20 homes. Because of that, I've become quite comfortable with change and find myself seeking it every few years.

When I was eight years old, my parents, my brother, and I left Cuba, the country I was born, and moved to Costa Rica. From that moment on, I had to embrace the feeling of being an outsider. I carried that feeling while my family and I moved countless times to find our footing within Costa Rica, and eventually that same feeling propelled us to seek better opportunities in the US, the place I now call home. Being an outsider isn't so bad, though. It's helped me identify patterns in the ways we communicate and interact with one another while giving me the perspective to appreciate what we have.

## What’s your design journey? Walk us through it.

I always enjoyed drawing, especially to distract myself in school. In fact, here’s a fun story: in 8th grade, the local newspaper did a piece on me because I won a drawing contest of sorts. In the piece, they asked me what music I liked. I tried to sound cool and said “Nirvana” the reporter didn’t buy it and asked me if I listened to Shakira. I said “uhh, I guess so. Sure.” It took years to shake off the “Shakira Painter” nickname in school after that.

Anyway, my childhood interest in drawing and video games eventually led me to explore design in 9th grade and I’ve been obsessed with it ever since. I studied Graphic Design in college but I really fell in love with the rebellious nature of the tech industry in 2007. Back then, the world of design agencies seemed to me like a country club exclusive to the white men who sat in front of monochrome backgrounds preaching simplicity.

It was refreshing to discover the emerging industry of mobile apps, inventing their own rules, creating job titles and work cultures. I wanted to be a part of that! So, I changed my address on LinkedIn to California (I was living in Florida at the time), grabbed a Google Voice number with a California area code, and started applying for jobs there. That con job eventually landed me in Los Angeles for a year and eventually San Francisco where I lived my dream of being part of a startup with Automatic, a connected car company.


<Image src="67/1.png" />
My role at Automatic was to design everything from the app’s UI, packaging, website, and even the door sign. I learned a ton and got the opportunity to flex all the design muscles I’d been building until that point.


<Image src="67/2.jpg" />

## In 2014, you joined Facebook as a Product Designer. Tell me about that.

Shortly after launching Automatic, a Facebook recruiter reached out for lunch. I didn’t speak recruiter lingo at the time and startup money wasn’t exactly abundant, so I said yes to a free meal! Turns out “lunch” was code for “an interview with a few of their designers in a closed room” — good to know! I totally bombed it (obviously), but was really impressed by the people I met that day. After a couple years of leading design for Automatic, I felt I had given it my all and needed to take some time to be a part of a larger team where I could learn from really smart people and level up my skills. So I asked that recruiter if we could grab “lunch.”

<Image src="67/3.png" />

After joining Facebook, I quickly found that I thrive in small teams where I can influence the culture and product vision. Luckily, they really encouraged mobility across the company at the time, so I found myself hopping between projects every few months. I was lucky to be a part of their well-oiled products like Pages, Photos, and Composer as well as other more experimental projects like Virtual Reality. I even moved to London for a year to lead a small project and help build their design team.

Working at Facebook was a truly expansive experience. It taught me the impact Design can have in the world and some lessons for effective communication that I’ve carried with me since. One of my favorites is: avoid surprises. I used to take so much pride in revealing a “brilliant” idea to my team in a meeting. Working at a large company, I learned to build incremental buy-in by slowly introducing ideas to my team. That way, when the whole team encounters it, it becomes an evolution of the collective thinking the group has already been doing.

> I used to take so much pride in revealing a “brilliant” idea to my team in a meeting. Working at a large company, I learned to build incremental buy-in by slowly introducing ideas to my team. That way, when the whole team encounters it, it becomes an evolution of the collective thinking the group has already been doing.

## Why did you move to Facebook's VR Design team? Who made the decision?

I loved my experience in the Facebook VR team. When I joined, I was as novice as it gets when it came to VR and 3D design. Luckily, the team was designed with diversity in mind, not just of race and gender but also of skillsets. Thanks to that, I was able to lean on my experience building products at scale to compliment the VR/3D skills other team members had.

<Image src="67/4.png" />

Over time, I got comfortable enough with Unity to make a few prototypes and eventually grew to lead design for the company’s first VR apps: Facebook 360 and Facebook Spaces. We were a scrappy team of 2 designers when I joined, but after two years we grew to 12. That team evolved Facebook VR from a small app into a metaverse-building juggernaut leading the VR conversation and steadily making progress towards a future reality unbound from physics.

## Why did you decide to leave Facebook and join Alphabet’s Jigsaw?

Like I mentioned at the beginning, I’m energized by change. After four years of amassing knowledge and valuable skills at Facebook, I felt inclined to apply those skills towards a cause that I was more closely aligned with. At the time, Jigsaw was a small team within Alphabet, tasked with using technology to help at-risk communities feel safer in the world. We worked on projects that tackled disinformation, online security, censorship, and online harassment.

I joined to lead a VR-focused project at first and eventually helped them manage the Design and Research teams across the company. At Jigsaw, I learned that we don’t need to compromise our values to make good, interesting design work. There are plenty of opportunities out there to be impactful, move the design industry forward, and make the world a better place. It’s a good reminder for us to peer outside the Silicon Valley bubble (possible even within a Silicon Valley company, surprisingly!) and apply our superpowers for good.

## What was your next destination after Jigsaw?

After a couple years at Jigsaw I felt the itch to go back to a startup environment, this time a little older, wiser, and with a mission-driven mindset. I joined Canopy, a startup founded by a few tech veterans who were eager for a private alternative to the data-mining personalization algorithms that plague the internet today.

<Image src="67/5.png" />

## What was your role at Canopy?

My role as Head of Design was to build the brand and help turn the team’s ambitions into a minimum lovable product: Tonic, a daily selection of personalized reads. The app used a mix of private on-device machine learning with human curation to recommend five things to read every day.

Canopy wasn’t like every other tech startup, though. It had privacy engrained at its core and through it I was given a blank canvas to introduce new mobile patterns that prioritized user trust over engagement. We documented a few of those and coined them [Sensible Design](https://uxdesign.cc/sensible-design-making-ethically-personalized-digital-products-2ac83ceac2a4). Tonic was our first foray into the Sensible recommendation space and it grew to have a small but dedicated audience. As a result, we were acquired by CNN in early 2020 to carry on that work and dream of a new news product that is designed with these principles at the center.

## What projects are you currently working on at CNN? What is your main focus?

As Director of Design for NewsCo, a CNN Digital’s Emerging Products and Platforms initiative, I am responsible for leading its user experience team, which includes Design and User Research. Our team is small, right now there’s about twenty of us at NewsCo and three in the UX team: two designers and one user researcher. Our team was founded with the goal of rethinking how we consume news and align it with the way information flows in 2020.

The Canopy team was acquired in April 2020, at the heart of the COVID-19 crisis, so we’ve been distributed since we started. Like most companies out there today, we’ve had to learn how to work from home in the midst of a global pandemic, plus adapt to the integration of the acquisition. Luckily, everyone at CNN has been extremely flexible and accommodating to WFH realities and made the process as smooth as it can be.

Needless to say, 2020 has been a newsworthy year and CNN has been an invaluable institution to help us navigate these turbulent times. It’s been an honor to form a small part of that team and help shape its future. I hope to be able to share more about what we’re working on when it’s ready!

## What has been the most significant learning to date from your career path?

The journey from a small startup at Automatic, then to large companies at Facebook and Google, then back for a short stint at small company at Canopy before joining yet another large company at CNN has been nothing short of exciting! If I had to choose, the connective tissue between those experiences is that they’re all guided by a motivation to grow, explore the ways in which we relate with technology, and ultimately build a better future.

My focus on growth has helped me find opportunities to continuously challenge myself when I feel too comfortable in a role. The downside of that is that I never truly feel like I know what I’m doing, since I jump to something else when I’m close to mastering it. The upside, however, is that I’ve been exposed to a prolific number of opportunities and roles whether it’s through personal side projects, virtual reality, emerging technologies, social good, or design leadership.

## Did you have any good mentors that helped you shape your design career?

I think most mentors serve that role without knowing. For me, I’ve had the fortune of cross paths with two really great people who’ve shaped the way I think about design.

[Daniel Burka](https://danielburka.com/) is a close friend and someone I’ve learned a ton from. When I joined Facebook in 2014, Daniel invited me for lunch at the Google Ventures office, where he worked as a Design Partner at the time. We were overlooking the Bay Bridge from the cafeteria and Daniel said something that I still think about today. He said something like: “Don’t get too comfortable. Don’t buy a Mini Cooper and live that lifestyle. It’s really hard to step back from it once you do.” There’s a ton of pressure to fit in when you join a large tech company; buy a Tesla, get a Peloton, go to meetings, and chase that performance review. Daniel’s advice rang in the back of my head throughout my experience at a large company and gave me the perspective I needed to keep growing. That allowed me to stay nimble enough to be exposed to more experiences, which I’m really grateful for.

Someone else that I’ve learned a lot from is [Charlie Sutton](http://www.charlie-sutton.com/), who is currently the VP & Head of Design for the Facebook app. I worked closely with Charlie when he led the VR team at Facebook and learned so many invaluable lessons from him. Namely, how to be patient and nurture harmony within a team. Not only does Charlie have an infinitely charming common wealth accent, he also has a unique eye for design and an even better eye for people. Witnessing how he balanced people and craft should be a required master class for all designers. Charlie taught me how to plant the seed of an idea in a team, then carefully water it to see it flourish as something bigger than you set it out to be. It’s no coincidence that he’s grown to be such an essential part of the entire company.

## How do you educate yourself?

I like to aim to be embarrassed by my six-month-old self every six months. That is to say, I try to find opportunities for education in everything I do, from the way I communicate, to how I formulate ideas, and manifest designs. That started by formally studying design from 16 years old, and continued as I surrounded myself with people smarter and more talented than me all the time. I try to curate Twitter to minimize the hot takes and virtue-signaling and instead elevate the many people who generously share ideas with our community. Admittedly, the public arena has gotten difficult to navigate and writing a tweet can feel like a high stakes game of Floor is Lava with your career. Luckily, I have a small group of peers and friends that appreciates the exploration of new ideas from whom I learn a ton every day.

## What excites you about design in 2020?

This year feels like the beginning of a new normal. Going back to the way things were before feels like a distant platonic wish. I’m excited about what’s to come because it must be different than everything that preceded us. In terms of Design, I’m excited for what this global distributed experiment will do to the way we work and how we balance work and life. We have an opportunity to rewrite some rules, it’s up to all of us to make sure they’re an improvement, though.

## What’s an interesting or fun fact about yourself we wouldn’t find on your social media?

I struggle to think that anything I do is interesting, but—if you must know—I keep a log of everything noteworthy I've done at [gabrielvaldivia.com/timeline](https://www.gabrielvaldivia.com/timeline). I find it useful to check in on whether I've accomplished what I wanted each year. The answer to that question isn't always “yes” but it's a fun way to hold myself accountable.

## What do you like to do when you’re not working?

I love playing, producing, and mixing music. Before doubling down on design, I played bass in several bands for over a decade. I love bass because it's what connects rhythm and melody and—just like design—it’s best when you don't notice it. Unfortunately, it's not so fun to play bass on your own. So now that I don't have the time to find a band, I dabble on guitar, drums, and the beep-boops in Logic. I released a solo album in 2019 called [Blankets](https://open.spotify.com/album/0z6r9g2LkTGGBV7A3BLRra?si=lPvjx_MQSNGp66ltIbYbfQ) and have been working on a follow-up this year during nights and weekends.

## Bonus Question: What is your favorite avocado dessert?

I… don’t like avocados or dessert! I somehow didn’t develop a sweet tooth at all, so my diet consists of extremely bland food like rice, bread, and popcorn. My friends tease me for eating only brown-colored food, so I wrote [a song](https://open.spotify.com/track/1e0sAbn8lPWQxy6ilu4nqM?si=Oej4m2PGSACc9UhDMlvW-Q) about it.

Gabriel Valvidia is a Cuban designer based in New York City, currently serving as the Head of Design at Canopy where we're building a new recommendation architecture for a better internet.

Using a growth mindset to advance in your career with Gabriel Valdivia

The Grit - Gabriel Valdivia, Director of Design for NewsCo | Avocode Blog

Brian Lovin is a designer, developer, podcaster, wannabe writer, and internet tinkerer. He's currently building things at GitHub, specifically working on the new iOS and Android mobile apps.